Canon FF Mirrorless....WHEN?

Mark Ransom · 08-24-2018, 03:39 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BigMackCam

If I was Canon, I'd probably wait to learn some lessons from Nikon's mirrorless launch and first few months thereafter. There are a lot of similarities between the two brands in terms of scale, market coverage, breadth of application etc. Nikon will have got some things wrong (every manufacturer does), and there are some valuable and relatively low-cost lessons Canon could benefit from - even if it has something almost ready to go - by holding off just a little while...

There aren't many changes that Canon could make in only a couple of months.

They could adjust the pricing.
They could change what bundles are available. For example is an adapter included, or a kit lens.
They could hold back a product that's actually ready to go, but I don't see an upside to that.
There might be one or two features that could be enabled or disabled in firmware.

All but that last item wouldn't need months to do. A couple of weeks might be enough.

**BigMackCam** · 08-24-2018, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by reh321

I believe that is most important to folk using very shallow DOF .... whatever else might be outside their DOF, they want the eyes to be inside it.

Indeed. It seems to be a really big deal for some. I'm much less demanding - I'm happy to rely on spot AF and recompose, or manual AF with the zoom area set near to the leading eye position. But I guess if you're shooting moving subjects at f/1.4 and need absolute accuracy on the leading eye, it could be important. Even if it's not, Sony offers it - and it appears to work well. On that basis, new entries to the FF mirrorless market will be partly judged on such capabilities...

**BigMackCam** · 08-24-2018, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Mark Ransom

There aren't many changes that Canon could make in only a couple of months.

They could adjust the pricing.
They could change what bundles are available. For example is an adapter included, or a kit lens.
They could hold back a product that's actually ready to go, but I don't see an upside to that.
There might be one or two features that could be enabled or disabled in firmware.

All but that last item wouldn't need months to do.

Agreed... but I'm not talking about just a couple of months (necessarily). If Canon identifies significant flaws in Nikon's platform when analysing initial feedback from reviews and users, it could delay production of any pending mirrorless model (or platform) until new features are developed to address the shortcomings. That might take three, six, twelve or eighteen months. It's arguably better to delay and enter the market with something that beats Nikon at Sony's game.

Just my opinion, and all conjecture, of course

**BigMackCam** · 08-24-2018, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by surfar

?Introducing the EOS M50? Eye Detection AF (CanonOfficial) - YouTube

I didn't watch the video, but I assume that's a yes... and I further assume that it's competitive with Sony's offering... My point being, anything more than Nikon's offering is a big plus, while matching or improving upon Sony's offering could make all the difference in initial customer take-up and long-term market dominance...

disconnekt · 08-24-2018, 04:00 PM

I see Canon doing a Mirrorless 5Dmk3 and *maybe* a Mirrorless 5DS/5DSR, but Canon being Canon there's a high chance they'll shot themselves in the foot AGAIN and botch the video specs or hide the better specs behind a "upgrade the sensor for better specs paywall"

surfar · 08-24-2018, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

My point being, anything more than Nikon's offering is a big plus,

I dont think Canon will make the mistakes that Nikon just have.

Funnily enough,IF the Nikon and $$$ony good features were combined into one camera(or 2...24/45mp) then that would be a VERY good product.

The balls in Canons court!(and tell Marky Mark,that we always beat the Kiwis @ tennis!)

skierd · 08-24-2018, 08:58 PM - **1 Like**

I’m curious, what mistakes did Nikon make in these cameras?

dstar · 08-24-2018, 10:05 PM

Look web petapixel .com call canon will be dominated in Mirrorless market
Huge article about future Canon movement
Actually very good interesting analysis

surfar · 08-25-2018, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by skierd

what mistakes did Nikon make in these cameras?

Take this in.

Youtu.be

---------- Post added 08-25-18 at 06:50 PM ----------

Heres a good summation of what Canon has to do,Which Nikon didnt.

Youtu.be

**ffking** · 08-25-2018, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by surfar

Take this in.

Interesting - just anecdotally, personally, I've found the greatest tendency to arrogance among photographers that I come into contact with is from Nikon users - interesting that he sees it as a corporate failing. I don't want Nikon to fail as they've had two phases of pushing photographic equipment forward (when they first made their bid for the pro market, and more recently after Canon dropped off the pace) and that's good for photographers, but the attitude does appear to be a problem. Maybe commentators don't realise how much constant innovation costs, and that companies need a time of resting on their laurels to refurbish their coffers - I don't know - pushing tech and marketing costs seem to be what broke Minolta - but who knows what really goes on in the boardrooms.

surfar · 08-25-2018, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by ffking

who knows what really goes on in the boardrooms.

Nikon launched a 2 Scud missiles in this war,$$$ony dont need to reply yet.

Originally posted by ffking

Interesting -

Canon may come with something incredible but my guess is they will do a "Nikon" bringing a competent product just aimed at bandaging up the wounds that $$$ony have opened.

Theres plenty more new stuff coming, the consumer has lots and lots of choice later this year.Another player will join the war soon.

reh321 · 08-25-2018, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by disconnekt

I see Canon doing a Mirrorless 5Dmk3 and *maybe* a Mirrorless 5DS/5DSR, but Canon being Canon there's a high chance they'll shot themselves in the foot AGAIN and botch the video specs or hide the better specs behind a "upgrade the sensor for better specs paywall"

Surprising that such an incompetent company can be dominant providers of MILC in the home country and dominant overall providers of ILCs worldwide.

Winder · 08-25-2018, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by surfar

Canon have an announcement Sept 4/5.

Will they respond to Nikon?...Enter the FF M/L genre?

Some have speculated just that and some think they will update the M5 with a MK 2???

Canon will, but they have the advantage of being the industry leader. They can sit back and watch Sony & Nikon and learn from their mistakes. As well as Sony is doing right now, they are still a small player compared to Canon. Nikon is just trying to keep it's users from jumping ship and hoping to stop the financial bleeding. The D850 was/is a huge hit and Nikon still has a lot of life left in them, but they also have a lot of work to do. I think Canon will do what Nikon did. Canon will make a mirrorless camera that is designed to work with all the existing lenses and be in the bag next to their 5D and 1D bodies. It won't be a camera that is designed to replace them. Looking at the new Nikon mirrorless cameras, they are not nearly as capable as the D850, nor do they have the value that the D850 has for the money.

skierd · 08-25-2018, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by surfar

Take this in.
Nikon Zzzzzzzz - YouTube

---------- Post added 08-25-18 at 06:50 PM ----------

Heres a good summation of what Canon has to do,Which Nikon didnt.

Mirrorless REINVENTED? Is this a new beginning for Nikon or the Beginning of the End? - YouTube

Can you summarize it for me? I’m not wasting 15 minutes on that.

Mark Ransom · 08-25-2018, 08:27 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by skierd

Can you summarize it for me? I’m not wasting 15 minutes on that.

Nikon is arrogant, they've always been arrogant. Just like IBM in the 1980's.

This camera is a fail, and every youtube vlogger says so.

08-24-2018, 03:39 PM - 1 Like	#16
Mark Ransom Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 498	Originally posted by BigMackCam If I was Canon, I'd probably wait to learn some lessons from Nikon's mirrorless launch and first few months thereafter. There are a lot of similarities between the two brands in terms of scale, market coverage, breadth of application etc. Nikon will have got some things wrong (every manufacturer does), and there are some valuable and relatively low-cost lessons Canon could benefit from - even if it has something almost ready to go - by holding off just a little while... There aren't many changes that Canon could make in only a couple of months. They could adjust the pricing. They could change what bundles are available. For example is an adapter included, or a kit lens. They could hold back a product that's actually ready to go, but I don't see an upside to that. There might be one or two features that could be enabled or disabled in firmware. All but that last item wouldn't need months to do. A couple of weeks might be enough.

08-24-2018, 03:47 PM	#18
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by Mark Ransom There aren't many changes that Canon could make in only a couple of months. They could adjust the pricing. They could change what bundles are available. For example is an adapter included, or a kit lens. They could hold back a product that's actually ready to go, but I don't see an upside to that. There might be one or two features that could be enabled or disabled in firmware. All but that last item wouldn't need months to do. Agreed... but I'm not talking about just a couple of months (necessarily). If Canon identifies significant flaws in Nikon's platform when analysing initial feedback from reviews and users, it could delay production of any pending mirrorless model (or platform) until new features are developed to address the shortcomings. That might take three, six, twelve or eighteen months. It's arguably better to delay and enter the market with something that beats Nikon at Sony's game. Just my opinion, and all conjecture, of course

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08-24-2018, 03:41 PM	#17
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by reh321 I believe that is most important to folk using very shallow DOF .... whatever else might be outside their DOF, they want the eyes to be inside it. Indeed. It seems to be a really big deal for some. I'm much less demanding - I'm happy to rely on spot AF and recompose, or manual AF with the zoom area set near to the leading eye position. But I guess if you're shooting moving subjects at f/1.4 and need absolute accuracy on the leading eye, it could be important. Even if it's not, Sony offers it - and it appears to work well. On that basis, new entries to the FF mirrorless market will be partly judged on such capabilities...

08-24-2018, 03:53 PM	#19
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by surfar ?Introducing the EOS M50? Eye Detection AF (CanonOfficial) - YouTube I didn't watch the video, but I assume that's a yes... and I further assume that it's competitive with Sony's offering... My point being, anything more than Nikon's offering is a big plus, while matching or improving upon Sony's offering could make all the difference in initial customer take-up and long-term market dominance...

08-24-2018, 04:00 PM	#20
disconnekt Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: SoCal/I.E. Photos: Albums Posts: 1,699	I see Canon doing a Mirrorless 5Dmk3 and maybe a Mirrorless 5DS/5DSR, but Canon being Canon there's a high chance they'll shot themselves in the foot AGAIN and botch the video specs or hide the better specs behind a "upgrade the sensor for better specs paywall"

08-24-2018, 04:34 PM	#21
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141 Original Poster	Originally posted by BigMackCam My point being, anything more than Nikon's offering is a big plus, I dont think Canon will make the mistakes that Nikon just have. Funnily enough,IF the Nikon and $$$ony good features were combined into one camera(or 2...24/45mp) then that would be a VERY good product. The balls in Canons court!(and tell Marky Mark,that we always beat the Kiwis @ tennis!)

08-24-2018, 08:58 PM - 1 Like	#22
skierd Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Fairbanks, AK Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,472	I’m curious, what mistakes did Nikon make in these cameras?

08-24-2018, 10:05 PM	#23
dstar Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 475	Look web petapixel .com call canon will be dominated in Mirrorless market Huge article about future Canon movement Actually very good interesting analysis

08-25-2018, 01:57 AM	#25
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	Originally posted by surfar Take this in. Interesting - just anecdotally, personally, I've found the greatest tendency to arrogance among photographers that I come into contact with is from Nikon users - interesting that he sees it as a corporate failing. I don't want Nikon to fail as they've had two phases of pushing photographic equipment forward (when they first made their bid for the pro market, and more recently after Canon dropped off the pace) and that's good for photographers, but the attitude does appear to be a problem. Maybe commentators don't realise how much constant innovation costs, and that companies need a time of resting on their laurels to refurbish their coffers - I don't know - pushing tech and marketing costs seem to be what broke Minolta - but who knows what really goes on in the boardrooms.

08-25-2018, 02:05 AM	#26
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141 Original Poster	Originally posted by ffking who knows what really goes on in the boardrooms. Nikon launched a 2 Scud missiles in this war,$$$ony dont need to reply yet. Originally posted by ffking Interesting - Canon may come with something incredible but my guess is they will do a "Nikon" bringing a competent product just aimed at bandaging up the wounds that $$$ony have opened. Theres plenty more new stuff coming, the consumer has lots and lots of choice later this year.Another player will join the war soon.

08-25-2018, 07:42 AM	#27
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,180	Originally posted by disconnekt I see Canon doing a Mirrorless 5Dmk3 and maybe a Mirrorless 5DS/5DSR, but Canon being Canon there's a high chance they'll shot themselves in the foot AGAIN and botch the video specs or hide the better specs behind a "upgrade the sensor for better specs paywall" Surprising that such an incompetent company can be dominant providers of MILC in the home country and dominant overall providers of ILCs worldwide.

08-25-2018, 08:38 AM	#28
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by surfar Canon have an announcement Sept 4/5. Will they respond to Nikon?...Enter the FF M/L genre? Some have speculated just that and some think they will update the M5 with a MK 2??? Canon will, but they have the advantage of being the industry leader. They can sit back and watch Sony & Nikon and learn from their mistakes. As well as Sony is doing right now, they are still a small player compared to Canon. Nikon is just trying to keep it's users from jumping ship and hoping to stop the financial bleeding. The D850 was/is a huge hit and Nikon still has a lot of life left in them, but they also have a lot of work to do. I think Canon will do what Nikon did. Canon will make a mirrorless camera that is designed to work with all the existing lenses and be in the bag next to their 5D and 1D bodies. It won't be a camera that is designed to replace them. Looking at the new Nikon mirrorless cameras, they are not nearly as capable as the D850, nor do they have the value that the D850 has for the money.

08-25-2018, 08:22 PM	#29
skierd Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Fairbanks, AK Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,472	Originally posted by surfar Take this in. Nikon Zzzzzzzz - YouTube ---------- Post added 08-25-18 at 06:50 PM ---------- Heres a good summation of what Canon has to do,Which Nikon didnt. Mirrorless REINVENTED? Is this a new beginning for Nikon or the Beginning of the End? - YouTube Can you summarize it for me? I’m not wasting 15 minutes on that.

08-25-2018, 08:27 PM - 1 Like	#30
Mark Ransom Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 498	Originally posted by skierd Can you summarize it for me? I’m not wasting 15 minutes on that. Nikon is arrogant, they've always been arrogant. Just like IBM in the 1980's. This camera is a fail, and every youtube vlogger says so.