$$$ony...who is going to catch them?

k1man · 08-27-2018, 04:29 AM

i really have no interest in mirrorless cameras made by anyone i am very happy with my little Pentax system, also even if i wanted to i could never afford to change, all in all none of them take better pictures than my K1 and K7 so it seems a bit fruitless always trying to compare or remark on how fantastic they are for those who like them and can afford a new system go for it, good luck, ian

ddb · 08-27-2018, 05:33 AM

I am still very new to this hobby. I had a few decent cameras but never used them beyond "green square" mode. Started with Minolta Maxxum 5D then Canon XTI Nikon D700, then Sony Nex 3 and 5n. My last acquisition was A6000 and when the lens adapters became common I discovered the manual mode and adapted old lenses.

My plan was to move up to Sony A7 at some point, but I still hesitate. I will have to haul larger, wider lenses, more focal length, and more light power. I find HSS and TTL useless I use two radio triggered mini flashes on mini tripods or bounce light off the walls when in urban areas. I compensate for a smaller sensor with a shorter focal length to get the same angles than with an FF. lens correction algos are good enough- nobody notices the difference when compressed for web.

Image manipulation software does a good job reducing noise - sharpening algos are getting very smart and I end up uploading stuff to the web at 16bit max where FF advantages make a very little difference anyway. If I can shoot at ISO 6400 or higher and denoise at almost no loss, why to worry about more light and larger sensors?

assuming continuing sensor improvements maybe the question here is: does FF has a future at all?

Dan Rentea · 08-27-2018, 06:09 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Mirrorless is such a great thing. A new mount is created in order the make the camera body slim. Then, an adapter (not free) should be added to make the body thick again in order to be able to mount your existing lenses. Wow, that's so smart. No, that's innovation!

With your DSLR you had 1000 shots battery life without grip, now you get a third of that, you need to buy a grip just to get back to your old DSLR battery life. What the heck? No, that's innovation led by Sony!

When you swapped lenses on your DSLR the mirror got the dust and any dust that made it through the mirror got stopped by the shutter that is normally closed on a DSLR, now with your new mirrorless when you change a lens, the sensor will be directly exposed less than 20mm behind the mount, you'll get dust spots on the sensor more often, don't forget to buy a sensor cleaning kit, in addition to the mount adapter and the battery grip with 4 spare batteries. That's innovation.

Showing only the negatives will always be more interesting to some because people react more on negatives and tend to discuss more on them rather then concentrate on the positive features.

Nikon has released their first mirrorless and Canon will probably be next in releasing a mirrorless. Mirrorless are still new compared to DSLRs but features like eye af, silent shutter, no blackout in bursts, etc. can be very handy in some circumstances. Look at electric cars. When those cars were first released, they had poor autonomy. With time, the autonomy improved and they become more and more advanced. Same will probably happen with mirrorless now that Canon and Nikon will enter in this new type of cameras.

reh321 · 08-27-2018, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

When you swapped lenses on your DSLR the mirror got the dust and any dust that made it through the mirror got stopped by the shutter that is normally closed on a DSLR, now with your new mirrorless when you change a lens, the sensor will be directly exposed less than 20mm behind the mount, you'll get dust spots on the sensor more often, don't forget to buy a sensor cleaning kit, in addition to the mount adapter and the battery grip with 4 spare batteries. That's innovation.

You seems to have a real phobia about dust! As I said elsewhere when you raised this issue, I have no more dust issues with my MILC Q-7 than I do with my DSLR K-30, and each is set so it cleans itself when turning on or off.

normhead · 08-27-2018, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

Same will probably happen with mirrorless now that Canon and Nikon will enter in this new type of cameras.

But in the end, all they will do is take pictures.
Same as a DSLR.

Dan Rentea · 08-27-2018, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by normhead

But in the end, all they will do is take pictures.
Same as a DSLR.

In the end, all that cars do is to take us from one place to other. Fortunately, we have enough options to get the most suited car for our needs.

It's the same with cameras, apartments, clothes, etc.

reh321 · 08-27-2018, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by normhead

But in the end, all they will do is take pictures.
Same as a DSLR.

But ease of use and quality of image can make an enormous difference. Before the Giveaway started, I was spending much of my time scanning old media .... I had forgotten how much nicer 35mm photos were than 110. Likewise, having a viewfinder makes my K-30 so much easier to use than my Q-7, but an EVF would have at least eliminated - if not partially reversed - that difference.

normhead · 08-27-2018, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

In the end, all that cars do is to take us from one place to other. Fortunately, we have enough options to get the most suited car for our needs.

It's the same with cameras, apartments, clothes, etc.

This thread has nothing to do with what's suited to our needs. This thread is some shill pimping Sony marketing propaganda.

Winder · 08-27-2018, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

Canon is doing well because they capture the entry level market and do a good job of keeping those photographers in the fold as they grow. Very few photographers I have ever met read DXO Mark scores or read specifications of new cameras. Canon's sensors have "lagged" for five years and in that time they have continued to dominate the market. They released a half-hearted mirrorless option and my understanding is that they now are number one in the mirrorless market in Japan.

Clearly Sony cameras are specs monsters (as you know from your A9). Their sensors are great. I just don't actually see that much of a change in the normal photographers that I see shooting weddings and when I am walking around at parks and zoos with my family.

The average Canon Rebel "Wedding Pro" is going to continue shooting Canon. The few guys who are dyed in the wool Canon shooter are going to keep shooting Canon. Canon is the marketing monster in the industry. I'm on a couple of Sony forums and there is a constant stream of new wedding photographers posting questions on how to setup their Sony cameras. It's a challenge because you don't setup your Sony camera like you would a DSLR when it comes to AF or using flash. I see a lot of portrait shooter moving to Sony. I have a couple of friends who switched from Nikon to Fuji and are now looking at switching to Sony. I know my little world might not be representative of the entire market, but I do see a change. Fuji was crushing it just a year ago, and now they seem to have slowed down and even fallen a little behind. Fuji seems to be stuck on a few key technologies and they have been passed by Sony for still photography and video. The GFX is a great camera, but is lacking relative to other options in the market at that price point. GFX has a lot of potential, but they are 2 generations away from having a camera that can really handle more than studio portraits.

Sony still has a lot of work to do themselves and its not all roses. Build quality is adequate at best and the ergonomics are poor relative to Pentax or even Olympus. But damn, the AF is amazing after shooting Pentax for so long. With eye-AF you don't have to focus and recompose. I compose and the camera automatically nails focus on the eyes. Working with people is much faster. No shutter blackout and silent shooting are much more important features than I expected them to be.

**pearsaab** · 08-27-2018, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by Winder

Sony still has a lot of work to do themselves and its not all roses. Build quality is adequate at best and the ergonomics are poor relative to Pentax or even Olympus. But damn, the AF is amazing after shooting Pentax for so long. With eye-AF you don't have to focus and recompose. I compose and the camera automatically nails focus on the eyes. Working with people is much faster. No shutter blackout and silent shooting are much more important features than I expected them to be.

Spot on Winder! The AF on Sony and build quality on Pentax are amazing. I love both cameras and at the moment struggling with giving any up although I find I use the Sony all the time. All cameras have their good and bad and no 1 camera is perfect.

Dan Rentea · 08-27-2018, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by normhead

This thread has nothing to do with what's suited to our needs. This thread is some shill pimping Sony marketing propaganda.

Only if you want to look this way at this thread. Some say that Sony leads the market in terms of innovations, others will say Pentax is leading this department, others will say Olympus, etc. Sony has indeed a big marketshare compared to other mirrorless brands, except Nikon who has a bigger user base due to DSLR owners. Canon doesn't have yet any kind of presence in mirrorless full frame market and we don't know if their first mirrorless full frame will have the performance of Sony full frame mirrorless cameras. If a forum member thinks that Sony has to be catched by others, it's his opinion and I don't intend to start a debate in this regard even if I don't think that Sony has to be catched by others.

normhead · 08-27-2018, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Winder

Working with people is much faster.

I don't have a lot of opportunity to work with people, so it's a feature I rarely need. Everyone's different. I did do a wedding this year, so I won't say never, but for me, the ruggedlness of Pentax bodies, and my habit of lugging my gear for miles on canoe trips would make Sony a really poor choice. I'm sure however, many people would benefit from Sony AF way more than I would,

Quote:

If a forum member thinks that Sony has to be catched by others, it's his opinion

Unless his opinion is exactly the same as the Sony marketing department, that's inaccurate. He's just reposting marketing material.

The difference between the OP and the Sony marketing department, is the marketing department knows they are crafting the facts to make things sound a little better for Sony than they are hoping to increase sales.. The OP, seems to just bite it, hook line and sinker.

I've already posted the areas in which Sony needs to catch up with Pentax before I can take them seriously. The title of this thread deliberately ignores those areas.

Dan Rentea · 08-27-2018, 08:42 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

The difference between the OP and the Sony marketing department, is the marketing department knows they are crafting the facts to make things sound a little better for Sony than they are hoping to increase sales.. The OP, seems to just bite it, hook line and sinker.

I've already posted the areas in which Sony needs to catch up with Pentax before I can take them seriously. The title of this thread deliberately ignores those areas.

Maybe the title of this thread ignores those areas due to the fact that Pentax doesn't have a mirrorless and if I understood correctly, this topic is about mirrorless and who is going to catch Sony now that Nikon showed their first full frame mirrorless.

reh321 · 08-27-2018, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

Maybe the title of this thread ignores those areas due to the fact that Pentax doesn't have a mirrorless and if I understood correctly, this topic is about mirrorless and who is going to catch Sony now that Nikon showed their first full frame mirrorless.

I guess the OP will have to speak for himself. From other posts he has made, he seems to view MILC as inherently superior to DSLR, and going to MILC as the only way a company can "catch" Sony ..... whatever that means.

normhead · 08-27-2018, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

Maybe the title of this thread ignores those areas due to the fact that Pentax doesn't have a mirrorless and if I understood correctly, this topic is about mirrorless and who is going to catch Sony now that Nikon showed their first full frame mirrorless.

Good point, but it's still Sony Marketing material not any kind of intelligent post. In fact more than anyone thing else, it is Sony bragging material. There's no humility in this thread. I take it about as seriously as the fans of some losing football team chanting "we're number 1", despite the fact that they aren't.

There is no mention of mirrorless in the title.

Quote:

$$$ony...who is going to catch them

and it's not in a Mirrorless sub-forum.
Why are you defending this nonsense?

08-27-2018, 08:22 AM	#71
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by normhead This thread has nothing to do with what's suited to our needs. This thread is some shill pimping Sony marketing propaganda. Only if you want to look this way at this thread. Some say that Sony leads the market in terms of innovations, others will say Pentax is leading this department, others will say Olympus, etc. Sony has indeed a big marketshare compared to other mirrorless brands, except Nikon who has a bigger user base due to DSLR owners. Canon doesn't have yet any kind of presence in mirrorless full frame market and we don't know if their first mirrorless full frame will have the performance of Sony full frame mirrorless cameras. If a forum member thinks that Sony has to be catched by others, it's his opinion and I don't intend to start a debate in this regard even if I don't think that Sony has to be catched by others. Last edited by Dan Rentea; 08-27-2018 at 08:32 AM.

08-27-2018, 08:30 AM	#72
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Winder Working with people is much faster. I don't have a lot of opportunity to work with people, so it's a feature I rarely need. Everyone's different. I did do a wedding this year, so I won't say never, but for me, the ruggedlness of Pentax bodies, and my habit of lugging my gear for miles on canoe trips would make Sony a really poor choice. I'm sure however, many people would benefit from Sony AF way more than I would, Quote: If a forum member thinks that Sony has to be catched by others, it's his opinion Unless his opinion is exactly the same as the Sony marketing department, that's inaccurate. He's just reposting marketing material. The difference between the OP and the Sony marketing department, is the marketing department knows they are crafting the facts to make things sound a little better for Sony than they are hoping to increase sales.. The OP, seems to just bite it, hook line and sinker. I've already posted the areas in which Sony needs to catch up with Pentax before I can take them seriously. The title of this thread deliberately ignores those areas. Last edited by normhead; 08-27-2018 at 08:38 AM.

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08-27-2018, 04:29 AM	#61
k1man Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Si Chiang Mai. Nong Khai Province Photos: Albums Posts: 358	i really have no interest in mirrorless cameras made by anyone i am very happy with my little Pentax system, also even if i wanted to i could never afford to change, all in all none of them take better pictures than my K1 and K7 so it seems a bit fruitless always trying to compare or remark on how fantastic they are for those who like them and can afford a new system go for it, good luck, ian

08-27-2018, 05:33 AM	#62
ddb Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: LA Photos: Albums Posts: 35	I am still very new to this hobby. I had a few decent cameras but never used them beyond "green square" mode. Started with Minolta Maxxum 5D then Canon XTI Nikon D700, then Sony Nex 3 and 5n. My last acquisition was A6000 and when the lens adapters became common I discovered the manual mode and adapted old lenses. My plan was to move up to Sony A7 at some point, but I still hesitate. I will have to haul larger, wider lenses, more focal length, and more light power. I find HSS and TTL useless I use two radio triggered mini flashes on mini tripods or bounce light off the walls when in urban areas. I compensate for a smaller sensor with a shorter focal length to get the same angles than with an FF. lens correction algos are good enough- nobody notices the difference when compressed for web. Image manipulation software does a good job reducing noise - sharpening algos are getting very smart and I end up uploading stuff to the web at 16bit max where FF advantages make a very little difference anyway. If I can shoot at ISO 6400 or higher and denoise at almost no loss, why to worry about more light and larger sensors? assuming continuing sensor improvements maybe the question here is: does FF has a future at all?

08-27-2018, 06:09 AM - 2 Likes	#63
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by biz-engineer Mirrorless is such a great thing. A new mount is created in order the make the camera body slim. Then, an adapter (not free) should be added to make the body thick again in order to be able to mount your existing lenses. Wow, that's so smart. No, that's innovation! With your DSLR you had 1000 shots battery life without grip, now you get a third of that, you need to buy a grip just to get back to your old DSLR battery life. What the heck? No, that's innovation led by Sony! When you swapped lenses on your DSLR the mirror got the dust and any dust that made it through the mirror got stopped by the shutter that is normally closed on a DSLR, now with your new mirrorless when you change a lens, the sensor will be directly exposed less than 20mm behind the mount, you'll get dust spots on the sensor more often, don't forget to buy a sensor cleaning kit, in addition to the mount adapter and the battery grip with 4 spare batteries. That's innovation. Showing only the negatives will always be more interesting to some because people react more on negatives and tend to discuss more on them rather then concentrate on the positive features. Nikon has released their first mirrorless and Canon will probably be next in releasing a mirrorless. Mirrorless are still new compared to DSLRs but features like eye af, silent shutter, no blackout in bursts, etc. can be very handy in some circumstances. Look at electric cars. When those cars were first released, they had poor autonomy. With time, the autonomy improved and they become more and more advanced. Same will probably happen with mirrorless now that Canon and Nikon will enter in this new type of cameras.

08-27-2018, 06:18 AM	#64
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by biz-engineer When you swapped lenses on your DSLR the mirror got the dust and any dust that made it through the mirror got stopped by the shutter that is normally closed on a DSLR, now with your new mirrorless when you change a lens, the sensor will be directly exposed less than 20mm behind the mount, you'll get dust spots on the sensor more often, don't forget to buy a sensor cleaning kit, in addition to the mount adapter and the battery grip with 4 spare batteries. That's innovation. You seems to have a real phobia about dust! As I said elsewhere when you raised this issue, I have no more dust issues with my MILC Q-7 than I do with my DSLR K-30, and each is set so it cleans itself when turning on or off.

08-27-2018, 07:09 AM	#65
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Dan Rentea Same will probably happen with mirrorless now that Canon and Nikon will enter in this new type of cameras. But in the end, all they will do is take pictures. Same as a DSLR.

08-27-2018, 07:28 AM	#66
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by normhead But in the end, all they will do is take pictures. Same as a DSLR. In the end, all that cars do is to take us from one place to other. Fortunately, we have enough options to get the most suited car for our needs. It's the same with cameras, apartments, clothes, etc.

08-27-2018, 07:37 AM	#67
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by normhead But in the end, all they will do is take pictures. Same as a DSLR. But ease of use and quality of image can make an enormous difference. Before the Giveaway started, I was spending much of my time scanning old media .... I had forgotten how much nicer 35mm photos were than 110. Likewise, having a viewfinder makes my K-30 so much easier to use than my Q-7, but an EVF would have at least eliminated - if not partially reversed - that difference.

08-27-2018, 07:44 AM	#68
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Dan Rentea In the end, all that cars do is to take us from one place to other. Fortunately, we have enough options to get the most suited car for our needs. It's the same with cameras, apartments, clothes, etc. This thread has nothing to do with what's suited to our needs. This thread is some shill pimping Sony marketing propaganda.

08-27-2018, 08:08 AM	#69
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Rondec Canon is doing well because they capture the entry level market and do a good job of keeping those photographers in the fold as they grow. Very few photographers I have ever met read DXO Mark scores or read specifications of new cameras. Canon's sensors have "lagged" for five years and in that time they have continued to dominate the market. They released a half-hearted mirrorless option and my understanding is that they now are number one in the mirrorless market in Japan. Clearly Sony cameras are specs monsters (as you know from your A9). Their sensors are great. I just don't actually see that much of a change in the normal photographers that I see shooting weddings and when I am walking around at parks and zoos with my family. The average Canon Rebel "Wedding Pro" is going to continue shooting Canon. The few guys who are dyed in the wool Canon shooter are going to keep shooting Canon. Canon is the marketing monster in the industry. I'm on a couple of Sony forums and there is a constant stream of new wedding photographers posting questions on how to setup their Sony cameras. It's a challenge because you don't setup your Sony camera like you would a DSLR when it comes to AF or using flash. I see a lot of portrait shooter moving to Sony. I have a couple of friends who switched from Nikon to Fuji and are now looking at switching to Sony. I know my little world might not be representative of the entire market, but I do see a change. Fuji was crushing it just a year ago, and now they seem to have slowed down and even fallen a little behind. Fuji seems to be stuck on a few key technologies and they have been passed by Sony for still photography and video. The GFX is a great camera, but is lacking relative to other options in the market at that price point. GFX has a lot of potential, but they are 2 generations away from having a camera that can really handle more than studio portraits. Sony still has a lot of work to do themselves and its not all roses. Build quality is adequate at best and the ergonomics are poor relative to Pentax or even Olympus. But damn, the AF is amazing after shooting Pentax for so long. With eye-AF you don't have to focus and recompose. I compose and the camera automatically nails focus on the eyes. Working with people is much faster. No shutter blackout and silent shooting are much more important features than I expected them to be.

08-27-2018, 08:18 AM	#70
pearsaab Otis Memorial Pentaxian Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: May 2011 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,900	Originally posted by Winder Sony still has a lot of work to do themselves and its not all roses. Build quality is adequate at best and the ergonomics are poor relative to Pentax or even Olympus. But damn, the AF is amazing after shooting Pentax for so long. With eye-AF you don't have to focus and recompose. I compose and the camera automatically nails focus on the eyes. Working with people is much faster. No shutter blackout and silent shooting are much more important features than I expected them to be. Spot on Winder! The AF on Sony and build quality on Pentax are amazing. I love both cameras and at the moment struggling with giving any up although I find I use the Sony all the time. All cameras have their good and bad and no 1 camera is perfect.

08-27-2018, 08:42 AM - 1 Like	#73
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by normhead The difference between the OP and the Sony marketing department, is the marketing department knows they are crafting the facts to make things sound a little better for Sony than they are hoping to increase sales.. The OP, seems to just bite it, hook line and sinker. I've already posted the areas in which Sony needs to catch up with Pentax before I can take them seriously. The title of this thread deliberately ignores those areas. Maybe the title of this thread ignores those areas due to the fact that Pentax doesn't have a mirrorless and if I understood correctly, this topic is about mirrorless and who is going to catch Sony now that Nikon showed their first full frame mirrorless.

08-27-2018, 08:55 AM	#74
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,181	Originally posted by Dan Rentea Maybe the title of this thread ignores those areas due to the fact that Pentax doesn't have a mirrorless and if I understood correctly, this topic is about mirrorless and who is going to catch Sony now that Nikon showed their first full frame mirrorless. I guess the OP will have to speak for himself. From other posts he has made, he seems to view MILC as inherently superior to DSLR, and going to MILC as the only way a company can "catch" Sony ..... whatever that means.

08-27-2018, 08:56 AM	#75
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Dan Rentea Maybe the title of this thread ignores those areas due to the fact that Pentax doesn't have a mirrorless and if I understood correctly, this topic is about mirrorless and who is going to catch Sony now that Nikon showed their first full frame mirrorless. Good point, but it's still Sony Marketing material not any kind of intelligent post. In fact more than anyone thing else, it is Sony bragging material. There's no humility in this thread. I take it about as seriously as the fans of some losing football team chanting "we're number 1", despite the fact that they aren't. There is no mention of mirrorless in the title. Quote: $$$ony...who is going to catch them and it's not in a Mirrorless sub-forum. Why are you defending this nonsense?