[reh321]

The significant slow down of burst rate with AFC shows that the on sensor PDAF of the EOS R is very slow and even slower than Pentax DSLR AF tracking such as the one use in Pentax K1. Kenspo made the right choice to get a 5D mark IV. Beside the bigger buffer, the EOS R is an even slower machine than the K1. K1 in crop mode can burst at about 7 FPS with AF tracking, that means the K1 itself is capable of speed but waiting for the FF sensor acquisition time (same as D800). Z7 and EOS R are slow cameras, not to be compared with the latest Sony models.

Where do you get AFC burst rate for a new camera?

[biz-engineer]

Where do you get AFC burst rate for a new camera?

I've read it somewhere in the specs. The difference of burst rate when switching from AFS to AFC tell a lot about the AF speed. And that would also explain how it is sensitive to -6ev... simply because it is sensitive but slow (usually engineering does a speed/noise/power trade-off given start of art merit figure). For the EOS R, I would not buy online, I'd rent it to try it first.

[reh321]

I've read it somewhere in the specs. The difference of burst rate when switching from AFS to AFC tell a lot about the AF speed.

I guess my issue is that it seems to become complicated once you introduce AF.C - my K-30 is very uneven at it as I was reminded this past weekend trying to shoot squirrels .... although I hear that the KP + PLM lens is much better. I'm a little surprised that they think they can measure it since AF.C seems to depend on type of motion involved.

[biz-engineer]

I'm a little surprised that they think they can measure it since AF.C seems to depend on type of motion involved.

with mirrorless it is different, the PDAF in on the sensor itself, that means the AF acquisition is done by reading the sensor and then the image is taken. On a DSLR, it is not the same sensor that take the image and perform AF, AF and image are two different signal path. In order to have fast AF with mirrorless the image sensor architecture has to be designed for mirrorless (I think I already wrote this somewhere here). That is why Nikon Z and Canon EOS R will has lower perf than Sony, that's because both Nikon and Canon are reusing a sensor that was designed for DSLR. If you use a sensor designed for a DSLR into a mirrorless camera, in AFC mode you get half the frame rate (best case...).

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Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-05-2018 at 03:17 PM.

[reh321]

with mirrorless it is different, the PDAF in on the sensor itself, that means the AF acquisition is done by reading the sensor and then the image is taken. On a DSLR, it is not the same sensor that take the image and perform AF, AF and image are two different signal path. In order to have fast AF with mirrorless the image sensor architecture has to be designed for mirrorless (I think I already wrote this somewhere here). That is why Nikon Z and Canon EOS R will has lower perf than Sony, that's because both Nikon and Canon are reusing a sensor that was designed for DSLR. If you use a sensor designed for a DSLR into a mirrorless camera, in AFC mode you get half the frame rate (best case...).

Which suggests a whole new set of questions

(1) Does Japan have "restraint of trade" laws?

(2) Is Sony limiting what a customer like Nikon or Pentax does with their sensors?

(3) Is Canon still trying to figure out this issue?

[biz-engineer]

Which suggests a whole new set of questions(1) Does Japan have "restraint of trade" laws?(2) Is Sony limiting what a customer like Nikon or Pentax does with their sensors?(3) Is Canon still trying to figure out this issue?

Sony can price their sensors how they want, which controls Nikon and Pentax if no one else is able to deliver a sensor having embedded features that facilitate mirrorless camera performance. Canon can design their own architecture, but it cost them money , they have to be sure to have enough volume of mirrorless sold to decide to design a dedicated sensor. BTW if Nikon want a custom sensor design from else than Sony, it's not gonna be free either. They have to sell a lot of cameras just of recoup the cost of R&D of the sensor only (then there are other cost for R&D of the camera itself etc). Anyway, all those companies know what they do, it's based on cost/risk more than technical.

[surfar]

What I was meaning is that you could not buy and use the EOS-M as a first step toward their R line, as you could do right now with their APS-C DSLR line, since you can keep the EF lenses when upgrading.

Flickr Stream

Yes, that seems to be true, so the EOS-M line will be less of a route to the EOS-R line than has potentially been true of the APS DSLR and the FF DSLR lines.

The M glass is fully compatible,with the adapters of course!

[Cannikin]

Canon is doubling down on the crippling. More expensive than the A7III and Z6, yet pretty much worse in almost every way, particularly video, except arguably dual-pixel AF. Already mentioned the poor specs before, but I think it's worth doubling down on the fact that there is no IBIS at all, even Nikon the other in-lens stabilization advocate has gone all in on it.

Not only is there no IBIS, their 28-70mm f/2 and 50mm f/1.2 do not even bother to have in lens IS. So straight up no image stabilization at all using those lenses, except awful "electronic stabilization" (read: select crop that exacerbates rolling shutter which looks really bad to begin with). Yeah, really great value for your $7600 for the camera and just those two lenses. Speaking of crop, 4k has a crop of 1.7x, smaller than APS-C (even the already smaller than normal 1.6x Canon "APS-C").

[surfar]

So far the Nikon turned out to be ho-hum. Everything looked great, except for the autofocus. I bet the old Nikon D7200 can still track better. They still have a chance to tweak the final autofocus features before they start selling it officially. I have a feeling that they'll have a much improved body the second time around. The body looks ergonomically good.

They covered themselves by saying Pre Orders were not able to be filled on time....in other words,they are FRANTICALLY working on the AF!

[reh321]

Canon is doubling down on the crippling. More expensive than the A7III and Z6, yet pretty much worse in almost every way, particularly video, except arguably dual-pixel AF. Already mentioned the poor specs before, but I think it's worth doubling down on the fact that there is no IBIS at all, even Nikon the other in-lens stabilization advocate has gone all in on it.

Not only is there no IBIS, their 28-70mm f/2 and 50mm f/1.2 do not even bother to have in lens IS. So straight up no image stabilization at all using those lenses, except awful "electronic stabilization" (read: select crop that exacerbates rolling shutter which looks really bad to begin with). Yeah, really great value for your $7600 for the camera and just those two lenses. Speaking of crop, 4k has a crop of 1.7x, smaller than APS-C (even the already smaller than normal 1.6x Canon "APS-C").

I gather you aren't going to purchase one. Do you already own a Sony?

[Cannikin]

I gather you aren't going to purchase one. Do you already own a Sony?

I'm looking to move my primary camera to a FF mirrorless system in the near future for various reasons. Now waiting for the Panasonic announcement before making my decision.

Sony's bodies have good specs on paper, but practical realities make me have reservations about them. First, the "star eater" forced noise reduction is a huge negative for me as I do a lot of night/astro shooting. Second, their GM lenses are super expensive, and adapted lenses do not have native-like performance, even with smart adapters.

This Canon I was briefly curious about, but I already see this is an intentionally heavily crippled camera. Not only do I think it's worse than its direct competitors, but I will not support a company that does this. My only hope was that it would make Nikon lower their prices, but fat chance of that now seeing as the EOS R is already more expensive.

I'm leaning towards Nikon right now. The Z7 doesn't have any serious negative for me besides the price. Don't care about 1 slot, XQD is fast and reliable, and later on with the CFExpress update the buffer will be irrelevant (though a new card will add to the price of course). I've handled a D850 and if the AF is even half that performance it'll still be lightyears ahead of Pentax that I've been using for almost a decade. Tons of adapted lenses provide native-like performance. IBIS for unstabilized lenses. Decent video. Only that eye-watering price makes me hesitate.

I hope Panasonic releases something that really shakes up the market, but they will have the problem of limited lens selection to begin with as they're starting FF from scratch. And Panasonic AF, based on my GH5, is not exactly state-of-the-art.

[surfar]

Don't care about 1 slot, XQD is fast and reliable.

Yes and getting FASTER when CF Express comes,Nikon doesnt need 2 card slots.

Their tethering feature goes 200metres.That alone is a U$ 950 accessory though.

I hope Panasonic releases something that really shakes up the market, but they will have the problem of limited lens selection to begin with as they're starting FF from scratch.

I think they will be the real contender.They have experience in development of M/L(m43 is completed,it cant progress much further)

FF M/L is Panasonics new challenge, but Yes,the glass they open with is the thing (unless theres a Smart adapter to competitors glass?) which is highly unlikely.
Pano will top the video specs,full size HDMI,dual cards....AF?.....nice ergomomics,great menu They will bring something interesting for sure.

[biz-engineer]

Only that eye-watering price makes me hesitate.

That will come down 25% off in the next couple of years.

Now waiting for the Panasonic announcement before making my decision.

I would limit my system for 1 x camera body + 2 lenses (lesson learned from buying a full Pentax K1 system, the future was "bright" but they drag their feet instead).

[beholder3]

In the end we will see this EOS R selling like hotcakes. Sony now is completely cut off from Canon and Nikon owners.

Just think of all they guys even in forums who use the term "invest" for buying gadgets/toys.

Invest in walkman company Sony which brings out tiny incremental gadget changes every 2 months and ignores the issues of the previous generations?
Invest in Nikon with a meh additional product while still being in a nose dive with uncertain future?

The term "safe bet" is a quality that is not to be underestimated.

[surfar]

Sony now is completely cut off from Canon and Nikon owners.

CaNik will run out of FanBois....$$$ony's next body will crush what has just been announced by the big 2.

CaNiks applied a thin bandaid to the big Wound that $$$ony created.

Panasonic are coming in to raid the CaNik client base as well.

Fuji just cut off the arms of the CaNik Apsc....at U$1499



The $$$ony Apsc is expected with less capability but a lesser price.There go the legs.