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08-31-2018, 10:54 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Likely Panasonic have to do this to protect their position in video. That’s nearly all of it right there. They’ll have known for a long while that the big boys esp. Canon with dual pixel would up their game in video with new-gen FF offerings which can do 6K, 8K et al. whereas Panny would be stuck on M43 + DFD focusing.

If the Leica SL mount checks out then perhaps that signals a Leica-Panasonic-Olympus FF consortium. Good idea perhaps, otherwise Oly is out in the cold. Ouch. Also may signal that as the market gets tougher and tougher the smaller players know they have to group up and consolidate. Or else.

Only a rumour of course. Might just be a pure video cam, after all. We’ll see.
You know, this makes perfect sense. I've seen rumblings on the DPReview M4/3 forum that Panasonic has promised 8K video for the 2020 Olympics. That requires a 44 megapixel sensor, which is completely impractical in a 4/3 sensor but easy-peasy in FF.

08-31-2018, 10:57 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Let them all savage each other to death. While Canikon fights it out with Panasony in Mirrorless, there's a DSLR market there that Pentax could take a slice of. All it needs to do is keep putting out competent cameras.
There's no reason to believe that Nikon and Canon will leave their DSLR customers high and dry. And in the meantime if half the people in the DSLR market decide that mirrorless is a critical feature, that leaves Pentax chasing only half the market.

This might really up the ante for staying in the game.
08-31-2018, 12:21 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by sunny16 Quote
Wow,that is quite unexpected.
08-31-2018, 02:19 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Olympus filed patents on 7 FF mirrorless lenses a couple of years ago. https://www.43rumors.com/the-seven-full-frame-lenses-patented-so-far-by-olympus/

They are working on something.
Early 2019 is common knowledge for the "BIG" announcement.

---------- Post added 09-01-18 at 08:23 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Ransom Quote
You know, this makes perfect sense. I've seen rumblings on the DPReview M4/3 forum that Panasonic has promised 8K video for the 2020 Olympics
Yes,its coming....I'm wondering if its necessary though.The difference between 1080 and 4K is noticeable but only on a large screen.

8K is projector size..full wall stuff.???

08-31-2018, 02:29 PM   #20
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These are heady times in which we live.
08-31-2018, 02:30 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Early 2019 is common knowledge for the "BIG" announcement.

---------- Post added 09-01-18 at 08:23 AM ----------



Yes,its coming....I'm wondering if its necessary though.The difference between 1080 and 4K is noticeable but only on a large screen.

8K is projector size..full wall stuff.???
At some point you can't see the difference unless you zoom in or otherwise restrict your view so you can't see the whole picture any more. There's no reason to go to any higher resolution than that unless you're cropping. I think we're already at that point with 4K, and 8K doesn't interest me at all.
08-31-2018, 02:32 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by sunny16 Quote
Well that is out of left field.. I'd have never figured them for Full Frame. Their m4/3rds system seems pricey to me.. I don't expect FF to be any cheaper.


QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Let them all savage each other to death. While Canikon fights it out with Panasony in Mirrorless, there's a DSLR market there that Pentax could take a slice of. All it needs to do is keep putting out competent cameras.
I've been saying that for awhile now. But I'm not so sure anymore.. well at least of the market demand for a DSLR system further in the future, say in 2025. And they are so small now as a brand that I'm not sure they could source parts for a DSLR if they were the only one or one of the very few remaining.


That said, one doesn't spend eons of time and money launching single primes once a year unless you're pretty sure of the need of them (DSLR).
08-31-2018, 03:19 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Don't do it quickly; do it right.
Yes. Look and learn, then act.

With mirrorless becoming such a crowded market now, and one occupied by big industrial players like Canon, Sony and Panasonic now, hastily throwing money around in one direction or another would be a mistake.

In an ideal world, all FF mirrorless players would adopt one openly licensed mount - eg Sony's FE - and then just fight it out on bodies and lenses.

08-31-2018, 03:24 PM   #24
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@digitalis What say you? I see the rumors are pointing to possible Leica SL mount compatibility. I'm a bit surprised by this move and unclear if this makes sense for Leica. Any thoughts?
08-31-2018, 05:58 PM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
@digitalis What say you? I see the rumors are pointing to possible Leica SL mount compatibility.
Leica SL lenses focus by wire, as do Panasonic lenses. So I can see Panasonic making a future camera compatible with SL Lenses, it would be a smart move if one wishes to curry favor with Leica. Leica also apparently has adapters for Leica S,M,R and T series lenses that will fit on the Leica SL - so If Panasonic adopts that mount, it opens up a wide realm of expensive lenses.
08-31-2018, 06:58 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Leica SL lenses focus by wire, as do Panasonic lenses. So I can see Panasonic making a future camera compatible with SL Lenses, it would be a smart move if one wishes to curry favor with Leica. Leica also apparently has adapters for Leica S,M,R and T series lenses that will fit on the Leica SL - so If Panasonic adopts that mount, it opens up a wide realm of expensive lenses.
Thank you for your knowledge.
08-31-2018, 07:27 PM   #27
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Using Leica SL mount seems to make sense for Panasonic. The Leica SL lenses are all made in Japan, and I believe Panasonic is involved in the design and manufacture of at least some of them. This means they must derive some benefit even from the sale of a Leica model, but you can expect them to come out with a lot more of their own.

I'm not surprised to hear this really. I've been expecting Panasonic and Olympus to make a larger sensor system for a while now. Looking at Micro 4/3, the systems are mostly mature, so where do they have to go. I think they have gone as up-market as they can with that sensor size, so their teams of engineers have to be working on something. This is a similar pattern to Fuji moving into medium format after filling out the X-mount line-up. Olympus has also been quiet, but I bet they come out with either a full frame or a medium format camera within a year.

It's is really interesting is so many companies standardizing on a such similar format at the same time. I can't help but feel there is an opportunity for Ricoh to establish themselves as the company that dares to be different. But right now they are stuck in the narrative that they are slow to change.
08-31-2018, 08:13 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Ransom Quote
You know, this makes perfect sense. I've seen rumblings on the DPReview M4/3 forum that Panasonic has promised 8K video for the 2020 Olympics. That requires a 44 megapixel sensor, which is completely impractical in a 4/3 sensor but easy-peasy in FF.
You'e right, this does make sense, going with a bigger sensor than m43 is the only way to get better specs and even if 8K isn't necessary right now, developing a new system to last for several years dictates an 8K capable design. Panasonic also has no choice but to use a new (to them at least) mount and for video cameras the next big step up comes with 5 figure price tags, so it doesn't handicap them if there aren't budget lens choices available at introduction.


Panasonic is betting on mid-range video being its ace in the hole for the long term; you don't invest in a new mount for a new format with the processing requirements of a new high data-rate video format with the idea of coming out with something completely different in five years. I'm not sure there is enough of a market for a video-oriented camera system between the low end instant posting to Youtube equipment and the truly professional high data-rate systems, to keep Panasonic building cameras for another decade, but obviously someone at Panasonic believes there is.

---------- Post added 08-31-18 at 09:59 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
It's is really interesting is so many companies standardizing on a such similar format at the same time.
Really the only standardizing is the size of the sensor, how and why Nikon, Canon and Panasonic are trying to gain business is different. Nikon is abandoning its existing mirrorless business and trying to find new customers with a new mount designed to require new lenses, to reverse a loss of overall market share; Canon is trying to complement its existing mirrorless business with a new format to protect and grow its current market leadership and Panasonic is introducing a new mount and format to keep ahead of obsolescence and protect its current market niche. As for Olympus, any big investment has to come with guaranteed customers, so unless they can supply larger than m43 lenses or camera components to another company, I really can't see them entering a new, relatively crowded market (which FF or MF would be). The days when a manufacturer has to have an offering for every market are long gone.

Canon and Nikon can move in and out of the mirrorless business as they see fit (and the changing market for MILCs dictates), Panasonic and Olympus need to find a niche in the mirrorless business that they can be major players in, to keep their production facilities operating, Sony needs to maximize its return to the parent corporation or be sold off to a Chinese company and Pentax needs to make a profit with its current resources so that their 2 days a year with the Ricoh Company CEO are entirely uneventful.

Last edited by RGlasel; 08-31-2018 at 09:01 PM.
08-31-2018, 10:16 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
You'e right, this does make sense, going with a bigger sensor than m43 is the only way to get better specs and even if 8K isn't necessary right now, developing a new system to last for several years dictates an 8K capable design. Panasonic also has no choice but to use a new (to them at least) mount and for video cameras the next big step up comes with 5 figure price tags, so it doesn't handicap them if there aren't budget lens choices available at introduction.


Panasonic is betting on mid-range video being its ace in the hole for the long term; you don't invest in a new mount for a new format with the processing requirements of a new high data-rate video format with the idea of coming out with something completely different in five years. I'm not sure there is enough of a market for a video-oriented camera system between the low end instant posting to Youtube equipment and the truly professional high data-rate systems, to keep Panasonic building cameras for another decade, but obviously someone at Panasonic believes there is.

---------- Post added 08-31-18 at 09:59 PM ----------

Really the only standardizing is the size of the sensor, how and why Nikon, Canon and Panasonic are trying to gain business is different. Nikon is abandoning its existing mirrorless business and trying to find new customers with a new mount designed to require new lenses, to reverse a loss of overall market share; Canon is trying to complement its existing mirrorless business with a new format to protect and grow its current market leadership and Panasonic is introducing a new mount and format to keep ahead of obsolescence and protect its current market niche. As for Olympus, any big investment has to come with guaranteed customers, so unless they can supply larger than m43 lenses or camera components to another company, I really can't see them entering a new, relatively crowded market (which FF or MF would be). The days when a manufacturer has to have an offering for every market are long gone.

Canon and Nikon can move in and out of the mirrorless business as they see fit (and the changing market for MILCs dictates), Panasonic and Olympus need to find a niche in the mirrorless business that they can be major players in, to keep their production facilities operating, Sony needs to maximize its return to the parent corporation or be sold off to a Chinese company and Pentax needs to make a profit with its current resources so that their 2 days a year with the Ricoh Company CEO are entirely uneventful.
Well, none of us knows what each company is really thinking but I think that is misreading of the situation. In my opinion, the makers break down neatly into two groups.

Sony, Nikon, Canon are shifting their business over from a DSLR system to a mirrorless system. You can see this from the kind of lenses they are releasing. These systems are designed so that their DSLRs can be retired sooner or later. The main difference among them is that Song’s DSLR position was weaker from the start, and they had more to gain from the shift (related group businesses), so it made more sense for them to take the plunge much sooner.

For Fuji, Panasonic and Olympus, it is a case of having been fairly successful with mirrorless so far, but realizing that they need a bigger system to target the high end. I don’t think they have any plan to retire their existing mirrorless mounts.

Nikon 1 and Canon M are not so relevant to the discussion in my opinion, because they were never intended to be the main mirrorless strategy. Basically, I think both Canon and Nikon are smarter than the internet based press is giving the credit for. But Canon is much smarter than Nikon. They will continue to dominate because they pay attention to what customers want.
09-01-2018, 02:21 AM - 1 Like   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
They will continue to dominate because they pay attention to what customers want.
Yes. In this respect, I think despite all these fancy new FF announcements, m4/3 and APS-C mirrorless will continue to have a long life.

The new emphasis on 'big' (size and $$) mirrorless by Nikon and Canon kind of runs against what consumers like and expect about mirrorless. So maybe some time soon, I suspect, we might see APS-C mirrorless announcements from both Canon and Nikon using their new mounts.
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