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09-01-2018, 03:22 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Yes. Look and learn, then act.

With mirrorless becoming such a crowded market now, and one occupied by big industrial players like Canon, Sony and Panasonic now, hastily throwing money around in one direction or another would be a mistake.

In an ideal world, all FF mirrorless players would adopt one openly licensed mount - eg Sony's FE - and then just fight it out on bodies and lenses.
I believe the Panasonic and Olympus lenses are cross-compatible, i.e. the M4/3 systems share a common mount, but IMHO expecting all the competitors in full-frame mirrorless to do this is a bit like Pentax giving out the K-mount spec way back when and having Nikon and Canon adopt it. Granted, Ricoh and Chinon did, but the days when Pentax was the name associated with the 'universal' SLR lens mount (M42) were probably already long gone.

09-01-2018, 03:33 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Yes. In this respect, I think despite all these fancy new FF announcements, m4/3 and APS-C mirrorless will continue to have a long life.
I have no doubt whatsoever smaller formats will continue to exist, however larger formats such as 645 and so on will remain a niche market.
09-01-2018, 04:34 AM - 1 Like   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
IMHO expecting all the competitors in full-frame mirrorless to do this ...
Yes, I concede that it is a forlorn hope to see an interest in FF mount standardization. An opportunity lost for the industry and consumers. Now we are seeing (once again) a rather wasteful profusion of different mounts stuck in front of 24x36 sensors. The m4/3 consortium had the right idea.
09-01-2018, 08:17 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Yes, I concede that it is a forlorn hope to see an interest in FF mount standardization. An opportunity lost for the industry and consumers. Now we are seeing (once again) a rather wasteful profusion of different mounts stuck in front of 24x36 sensors. The m4/3 consortium had the right idea.
The technical and economic/licensing discussions around adopting a common mount in micro 4/3 would have been interesting to hear. It's one thing to agree on commonality; it's another, entirely unacceptable, thing to want to force it on people. The more players involved, the higher the chance that someone is going to lose out by being obliged to accept a common solution.

Can you imagine how Pentaxians would have felt in the changeover to digital if they were told that all Pentax digital bodies were going to use what is now the current Canon mount (for example)? "betrayed" does not even begin to describe it. We pride ourselves here on the extent of our legacy support; imagine that all going out the window (and Nikon owners would have been in a very similar boat).

09-01-2018, 01:12 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
however larger formats such as 645 and so on will remain a niche market.
Yes, that Niche has been a high cost up until this month.Very soon it becomes "affordable" to many that thought they couldnt.
09-01-2018, 01:27 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Yes, that Niche has been a high cost up until this month.Very soon it becomes "affordable" to many that thought they couldnt.
Both ends of the camera market are niches. The camera market itself is a niche...


Yet I see cropped MF eventually becoming what FF was 5 or 6 years ago in product tiering and pricing.

After we have worn out FF like we wore out APS-C in terms of breadth of systems and lens types, the market will want something else to keep generating fresh sales. And if they keep wanting to one-up each other, what is the next step? I think a larger sensor.

This is where Ricoh/Pentax is in an interesting situation, because they already have a cropped MF digital system. Their issue, imo, is in the size of a MF DSLR.. its massive. Once we see more mirrorless designs the size of FF DSLRs, that MF is going to seem antiquated in the market. Unless they scale up the sensor size to a more truer MF size.

It is currently a push upwards for resolution as one of the more marketable features.
09-01-2018, 01:28 PM   #37
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Would be cool if Oly and Panasonic can team up for a new FF mount as they did for mft. With both companies experience with MILC systems, they can really compete with Sony i think, and quickly fill out the lens line up. I remember reading Olympus patenting FF designs few years ago, I wonder if they were planning to go FF as well in near future.
09-01-2018, 02:07 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
I remember reading Olympus patenting FF designs few years ago, I wonder if they were planning to go FF as well in near future.
Its only a rumour but,Something BIG is supposed to be announced early next year by OLY.In 2017 they patented 7 FF lenses?Speculation at this stage but a shared mount may happen,its been successful in the past(over 50 AF M43 lenses).

---------- Post added 09-02-18 at 08:09 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yet I see cropped MF eventually becoming what FF was 5 or 6 years ago in product tiering and pricing.
Pricing is about to DROP in a big way.Mind you the sensor cost alone keeps the price up there.

---------- Post added 09-02-18 at 08:11 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Their issue, imo, is in the size of a MF DSLR.. its massive
At 1.5kgs its heavy too....take around a KG off and the mirrorless alternative becomes attractive.

09-01-2018, 02:53 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
At 1.5kgs its heavy too....take around a KG off and the mirrorless alternative becomes attractive.
Thereís no real getting around the size of the lenses, though, unless f8 lenses become the standard, as they were with the old folding 120 film cameras.
09-01-2018, 03:37 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote

Pricing is about to DROP in a big way.Mind you the sensor cost alone keeps the price up there.

---------- Post added 09-02-18 at 08:11 AM ----------



At 1.5kgs its heavy too....take around a KG off and the mirrorless alternative becomes attractive.
Well for the new Fuji rangerfinger-like MF yes.. around 3-4k for a cropped MF body. If you're a landscape or product shooter it becomes interesting.. 47MP full frame system or 50 MP cropped medium format in the same price neighborhood.


It will be interesting to see what Fuji does there and just how cheap they can make MF.. since it appears to be their 'FF' system in their product tiering.


Once more brands get on board, prices should lower even further.

Interesting point on weight... yes hiking out to a remote site doesn't seem like fun with a 645D/Z (and a possibly a sturdy enough tripod). Shaving weight is more than a bonus there.. it makes some treks even possible that might not have been otherwise. The larger the sensor, the more I see a purpose for mirrorless ILCs over DSLR designs because the mirrorbox becomes massive as the sensor increases.. and that slappy mirror gets bigger too.
09-01-2018, 03:45 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
At 1.5kgs its heavy too....take around a KG off and the mirrorless alternative becomes attractive.
I've seen some high praise, and very nice images come out of the Fuji MILC MF. While it's out of my price range, I can appreciate what they did with that camera. And it's lighter than my K-1 at 827g. Although I'd imagine the MF lenses are hefty (haven't used MF yet)
09-01-2018, 04:19 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
There’s no real getting around the size of the lenses, though,
Hows RobB?...Yes, some of the lenses are large...some are not that much bigger than FF,similar length but thicker to cover the sensor of course.

As well as having the crop mode many FF lenses are useable...win/WIN!...but only the speed of a Pentax FF.

---------- Post added 09-02-18 at 10:24 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
very nice images come out of the Fuji MILC MF. While it's out of my price range,
I know the Sensor costs U$ 2K alone, Fuji are attacking the market with quality and price.This is their FF/Medium Format entry level model.Final pricing hasnt been revealed but some have speculated it could be near Nikon Z7 price,others think its 1K more??? I just dont know yet.

---------- Post added 09-02-18 at 10:34 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
It will be interesting to see what Fuji does there and just how cheap they can make MF.. since it appears to be their 'FF' system in their product tiering.
Thats the thing,the information has been closely guarded...whereas the XT-3 info has been "out there" a long time.

We know it'll be competitive with high end DSLR and probably undercut some.It wont have the speed in crop mode but will still be a extremely capable street shooter which opens a new door for that genre.
09-01-2018, 04:43 PM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
...but only the speed of a Pentax FF.
Well, thatís the end of that, then.
09-01-2018, 05:06 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Hows RobB?
I hope you are both well>

---------- Post added 09-02-18 at 11:10 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
Well,
...........
09-01-2018, 05:31 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
I know the Sensor costs U$ 2K alone, Fuji are attacking the market with quality and price.This is their FF/Medium Format entry level model.Final pricing hasnt been revealed but some have speculated it could be near Nikon Z7 price,others think its 1K more??? I just dont know yet
I meant the Fuji GFX 50S, the one that entered the market last year. I know they have a MF rangefinder style camera, like a larger Xpro2, sounds like it will be more affordable (although, for the image quality, 50s is reasonably priced, as well as the 645z)
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