Full frame Mirrorless cameras...are they going to dominate ? Who will buy?

normhead · 09-10-2018, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by surfar

It was a couple of years ago,well now lately(A9,A7r3,A7iii,XH-1,GFX50S,Panasonics GH5and S and G9) the 3.7mill EVFs are highly regarded by both people who like EVFs and OVFs(apart from the eyestrain sufferers).

Do you have a link from someone who was big fan of OVF's changing their mind?

It sounds like it would be easy to find such a link.

Last edited by normhead; 09-11-2018 at 05:40 AM.

k1man · 09-10-2018, 02:51 PM

Hi all, even if I could afford these new types of cameras, which I cant, why have another system which would not get much use after the initial purchase, I only have about 5/6000 pops on my K1, but dont get me wrong I am not criticizing any of the mirrorless systems, dont know much about them, this seems to be for the well off who collect cameras to say I have got everything, it wont take better pics than my K1 so not interested, regards Ian

surfar · 09-10-2018, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Do you have a link from someone who was big fan of OVF's changing their mind?

Upi ,are it sound like it would be easy to find such a link.

Here is a Canon fashion Pro's opinion...watch from 4.35

Youtu.be

pakinjapan · 09-10-2018, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by photoptimist

This is a fundamental problem in physics (not technology) for EVFs. It cannot be solved because there's simply not enough photons coming from the scene to form an image that is BOTH low-lag AND low-noise.

Shutter time is an unavoidable source of EVF lag in MILCs. It's not a problem in broad daylight but in low light that means either having a long lag or boosting the ISO to grainy levels.

I have seen this on my friend's a7. I have to admit, it makes me rethink about getting a mirrorless a bit because i shoot at night a lot. It is a lot easier to work on K3 screen at night than my friend's sony. But his FF can do handheld night photo at iso800 when i am screaming for a tripod. lol
and l am not a fan of heavy equipments because I have to walk fast and walk a lot each trip. I don't think I can swallow FF DSLR weight and size. I am sticking with K3 and 2 primes per trip for now. If Pentax can stick a ff sensor inside a K3 / k5 size body, that will be my dream comes true. It doesn't need to be a mirrorless.

rawr · 09-10-2018, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by photoptimist

The EVF can't show you what the sensor sees until after the sensor outputs the data. And the sensor can't output the data until it's gathered enough light for a usable image. In low-light, the latest and greatest high frames-per-second sensor and EVF is useless because the system has to wait for the photons to arrive.

There are recent mirrorless that claim -3 EV (A7s), -4 EV (Z6), even -6 EV[!!] (EOS R) autofocus sensitivity (usually with ~f1.4 lenses). If true, even though the photons will still be scarce in low-light, they must be able to find contrast somehow in order to make those claims, even through lots of sensor noise. Perhaps the circuitry and algorithms that help achieve this magic could also help improve EVF performance. But I am not optimistic.

Even this interesting story about testing the low-light limits of the EOS R damns the EVF performance under low-light with the very faintest of praise: "I see a pretty good representation of what the images are going to look like".

https://www.canon-europe.com/pro/stories/eos-r-daniel-etter/

Most people would expect to see better than only a 'pretty good representation' of what's in front of them from a modern digital camera.

surfar · 09-10-2018, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Do you have a link from someone who was big fan of OVF's changing their mind?

At 13.15 FRO knows about the EVF

Youtu.be

Ian Stuart Forsyth · 09-10-2018, 08:27 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by rawr

There are recent mirrorless that claim -3 EV (A7s), -4 EV (Z6), even -6 EV[!!] (EOS R) autofocus sensitivity (usually with ~f1.4 lenses). If true, even though the photons will still be scarce in low-light, they must be able to find contrast somehow in order to make those claims, even through lots of sensor noise. Perhaps the circuitry and algorithms that help achieve this magic could also help improve EVF performance. But I am not optimistic.

ML's cameras don't have to deal with a separator mask that is found in a DSLR's AF system, the problem with the separator masks is that it limits how much light makes it to the AF sensor. Most standard mask that I have seen restrict the system to f/5.6-f6.7 so in reality a DSLR's AF sensor is only receiving light as if it was at the very most a f/5.6 lens. Using a faster lens than what the separator mask limits does not allow more light to hit the AF sensor.

On the other hand AF points found on the imaging sensor does not have the separator mask so a faster lens will project more light for the AF points, the problem with on sensor AF points is that they are limited by their size and how much size will restrict the light they can collect.

repaap · 09-11-2018, 12:43 AM

Well, sure it sounds good! As that guy stated in video, in couple of yrs. It is gonna take over traditional DSLR. And that is what he is paid for. Never the less, seems like this mirrorless thing is going to places.. one big chunk of lenses btw.. and €€€€€$$$¥¥¥, and then some. Mediumformat has to put some serious things on the table to compete those fast lenses too.

Kunzite · 09-11-2018, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by surfar

At 13.15 FRO knows about the EVF

But was he a big fan of OVFs before that?
Well, it's easy for a MILC fan to say, "I was a big OVF fan until I've seen the (electronically generated) light". The real test, however, is to convince someone like me.

L.E. I've said it in the past - IMO the improvements on EVFs would make them "better" for those who already like EVFs, but won't really do much for people having issues with EVFs.

surfar · 09-11-2018, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

I've said it in the past - IMO the improvements on EVFs would make them "better" for those who already like EVFs, but won't really do much for people having issues with EVFs.

Yes, there will always be a market for cameras with an OVF...the mirror is more likely to go b4 the OVF.

It'll be interesting to see what happens from CaNik into the future?...How much development will go towards the SLR as opposed to the new systems?

I'm sure they will coexist in the short term(5-10)years....beyond that? With Tech advancing rapidly its difficult to say.

BTW, ....FRO dont know much....he reviewed a &*() brand camera and couldnt even put the approriate suitable SD card in it.

normhead · 09-11-2018, 05:53 AM

I don't like videos much... I found one, that pretty much mirrors what I understand to be the situation. It doesn't all apply to Pentax owners because all Pentax cameras use pentaprisms not pentamirrors which the author claims is one of the major differences, with pentamirrors displaying only 70% of the frame, hard to believe Nikon and Canon make shut stuff.

In his summary he speculates Mirrorless will get better. He says at this point any good photographer could use either I guess we'll have to keep watching.
EVF vs OVF | Enthusiast Photography Blog

**Kevin B123** · 09-11-2018, 10:14 AM

This guy makes a decent living from his DSLR and his view is financially sound:

You Tube

I should add, he is not changing for a while yet.

Culture · 09-11-2018, 11:35 AM - **1 Like**

Didnt Pentax loose its market share because they refused to jump to digital.
Mirrorless is today's digital to DSLR.

Twenty years ago, I made phone calls from telephone booths. Today, I can make phone calls with my watch.

repaap · 09-11-2018, 11:48 AM

Well no one has said that Pentax(ricoh) is not going mirrorless, they said couple yrs a go that technikal point, like EVF is not there yet. Well it is not there yet, but it is getting close. So there might be pentax version of mirrorless soon(in few yrs and little more).

That said, Nikon and Canon have not brought ready made models, and they are overprised. As stated in reviews. There is not anything new on the table yet, except that there is more options for lens adapters. Lens mount and lenses are bigger, while camera might be smaller..might be tgat Panasonic could make a splash with more compact desing(little slower yes, but smaller and therefore more desireable?) the thing what I personally would be looking for from mirrorless desing.

surfar · 09-11-2018, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Kevin B123

This guy makes a decent living from his DSLR and his view is financially sound:

Originally posted by Kevin B123

I should add, he is not changing for a while yet.

Yes, the cameras he mentioned only one is a step up for what he shoots.

Lets see IF hes prepared to pay the entry price to MF(U$4500ish).He can use his existing Canon glass with a cheapish adapter(Fringer) both in FF mode and some will cover MF.

---------- Post added 09-12-18 at 07:46 AM ----------

Originally posted by repaap

That said, Nikon and Canon have not brought ready made models, and they are overprised

They will sell lots, they are IN the game.Prices are CaNik prices...Overpriced? Not from their users perspective.

Eos R is quite like a 5D mk 4 at a discounted price.For the price of a 5D mk4,you get a Eos R with a 24-105.Thats a bargain.
In saying that the stills are crippled a little with the speeds of release firmware,that can change with further development.
The video has the correct codec.

09-10-2018, 04:16 PM	#65
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by photoptimist The EVF can't show you what the sensor sees until after the sensor outputs the data. And the sensor can't output the data until it's gathered enough light for a usable image. In low-light, the latest and greatest high frames-per-second sensor and EVF is useless because the system has to wait for the photons to arrive. There are recent mirrorless that claim -3 EV (A7s), -4 EV (Z6), even -6 EV[!!] (EOS R) autofocus sensitivity (usually with ~f1.4 lenses). If true, even though the photons will still be scarce in low-light, they must be able to find contrast somehow in order to make those claims, even through lots of sensor noise. Perhaps the circuitry and algorithms that help achieve this magic could also help improve EVF performance. But I am not optimistic. Even this interesting story about testing the low-light limits of the EOS R damns the EVF performance under low-light with the very faintest of praise: "I see a pretty good representation of what the images are going to look like". https://www.canon-europe.com/pro/stories/eos-r-daniel-etter/ Most people would expect to see better than only a 'pretty good representation' of what's in front of them from a modern digital camera. Last edited by rawr; 09-10-2018 at 04:42 PM.

09-11-2018, 05:53 AM	#71
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	I don't like videos much... I found one, that pretty much mirrors what I understand to be the situation. It doesn't all apply to Pentax owners because all Pentax cameras use pentaprisms not pentamirrors which the author claims is one of the major differences, with pentamirrors displaying only 70% of the frame, hard to believe Nikon and Canon make shut stuff. In his summary he speculates Mirrorless will get better. He says at this point any good photographer could use either I guess we'll have to keep watching. EVF vs OVF \| Enthusiast Photography Blog Last edited by normhead; 09-11-2018 at 06:01 AM.

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09-10-2018, 02:42 PM	#61
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by surfar It was a couple of years ago,well now lately(A9,A7r3,A7iii,XH-1,GFX50S,Panasonics GH5and S and G9) the 3.7mill EVFs are highly regarded by both people who like EVFs and OVFs(apart from the eyestrain sufferers). Do you have a link from someone who was big fan of OVF's changing their mind? It sounds like it would be easy to find such a link. Last edited by normhead; 09-11-2018 at 05:40 AM.

09-10-2018, 02:51 PM	#62
k1man Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Si Chiang Mai. Nong Khai Province Photos: Albums Posts: 358	Hi all, even if I could afford these new types of cameras, which I cant, why have another system which would not get much use after the initial purchase, I only have about 5/6000 pops on my K1, but dont get me wrong I am not criticizing any of the mirrorless systems, dont know much about them, this seems to be for the well off who collect cameras to say I have got everything, it wont take better pics than my K1 so not interested, regards Ian

09-10-2018, 04:03 PM	#64
pakinjapan Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,041	Originally posted by photoptimist This is a fundamental problem in physics (not technology) for EVFs. It cannot be solved because there's simply not enough photons coming from the scene to form an image that is BOTH low-lag AND low-noise. Shutter time is an unavoidable source of EVF lag in MILCs. It's not a problem in broad daylight but in low light that means either having a long lag or boosting the ISO to grainy levels. I have seen this on my friend's a7. I have to admit, it makes me rethink about getting a mirrorless a bit because i shoot at night a lot. It is a lot easier to work on K3 screen at night than my friend's sony. But his FF can do handheld night photo at iso800 when i am screaming for a tripod. lol and l am not a fan of heavy equipments because I have to walk fast and walk a lot each trip. I don't think I can swallow FF DSLR weight and size. I am sticking with K3 and 2 primes per trip for now. If Pentax can stick a ff sensor inside a K3 / k5 size body, that will be my dream comes true. It doesn't need to be a mirrorless.

09-10-2018, 08:27 PM - 1 Like	#67
Ian Stuart Forsyth Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,531	Originally posted by rawr There are recent mirrorless that claim -3 EV (A7s), -4 EV (Z6), even -6 EV[!!] (EOS R) autofocus sensitivity (usually with ~f1.4 lenses). If true, even though the photons will still be scarce in low-light, they must be able to find contrast somehow in order to make those claims, even through lots of sensor noise. Perhaps the circuitry and algorithms that help achieve this magic could also help improve EVF performance. But I am not optimistic. ML's cameras don't have to deal with a separator mask that is found in a DSLR's AF system, the problem with the separator masks is that it limits how much light makes it to the AF sensor. Most standard mask that I have seen restrict the system to f/5.6-f6.7 so in reality a DSLR's AF sensor is only receiving light as if it was at the very most a f/5.6 lens. Using a faster lens than what the separator mask limits does not allow more light to hit the AF sensor. On the other hand AF points found on the imaging sensor does not have the separator mask so a faster lens will project more light for the AF points, the problem with on sensor AF points is that they are limited by their size and how much size will restrict the light they can collect.

09-11-2018, 12:43 AM	#68
repaap Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2010 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,242	Well, sure it sounds good! As that guy stated in video, in couple of yrs. It is gonna take over traditional DSLR. And that is what he is paid for. Never the less, seems like this mirrorless thing is going to places.. one big chunk of lenses btw.. and €€€€€$$$¥¥¥, and then some. Mediumformat has to put some serious things on the table to compete those fast lenses too.

09-11-2018, 03:32 AM	#69
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by surfar At 13.15 FRO knows about the EVF But was he a big fan of OVFs before that? Well, it's easy for a MILC fan to say, "I was a big OVF fan until I've seen the (electronically generated) light". The real test, however, is to convince someone like me. L.E. I've said it in the past - IMO the improvements on EVFs would make them "better" for those who already like EVFs, but won't really do much for people having issues with EVFs.

09-11-2018, 03:56 AM	#70
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,145	Originally posted by Kunzite I've said it in the past - IMO the improvements on EVFs would make them "better" for those who already like EVFs, but won't really do much for people having issues with EVFs. Yes, there will always be a market for cameras with an OVF...the mirror is more likely to go b4 the OVF. It'll be interesting to see what happens from CaNik into the future?...How much development will go towards the SLR as opposed to the new systems? I'm sure they will coexist in the short term(5-10)years....beyond that? With Tech advancing rapidly its difficult to say. BTW, ....FRO dont know much....he reviewed a &*() brand camera and couldnt even put the approriate suitable SD card in it.

09-11-2018, 11:35 AM - 1 Like	#73
Culture Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Vaasa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 818	Didnt Pentax loose its market share because they refused to jump to digital. Mirrorless is today's digital to DSLR. Twenty years ago, I made phone calls from telephone booths. Today, I can make phone calls with my watch.

09-11-2018, 11:48 AM	#74
repaap Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2010 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,242	Well no one has said that Pentax(ricoh) is not going mirrorless, they said couple yrs a go that technikal point, like EVF is not there yet. Well it is not there yet, but it is getting close. So there might be pentax version of mirrorless soon(in few yrs and little more). That said, Nikon and Canon have not brought ready made models, and they are overprised. As stated in reviews. There is not anything new on the table yet, except that there is more options for lens adapters. Lens mount and lenses are bigger, while camera might be smaller..might be tgat Panasonic could make a splash with more compact desing(little slower yes, but smaller and therefore more desireable?) the thing what I personally would be looking for from mirrorless desing.

09-11-2018, 01:36 PM	#75
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,145	Originally posted by Kevin B123 This guy makes a decent living from his DSLR and his view is financially sound: Originally posted by Kevin B123 I should add, he is not changing for a while yet. Yes, the cameras he mentioned only one is a step up for what he shoots. Lets see IF hes prepared to pay the entry price to MF(U$4500ish).He can use his existing Canon glass with a cheapish adapter(Fringer) both in FF mode and some will cover MF. ---------- Post added 09-12-18 at 07:46 AM ---------- Originally posted by repaap That said, Nikon and Canon have not brought ready made models, and they are overprised They will sell lots, they are IN the game.Prices are CaNik prices...Overpriced? Not from their users perspective. Eos R is quite like a 5D mk 4 at a discounted price.For the price of a 5D mk4,you get a Eos R with a 24-105.Thats a bargain. In saying that the stills are crippled a little with the speeds of release firmware,that can change with further development. The video has the correct codec.