[Kunzite]

Whats that got to do with anything? Individual choice is just that.You are here commenting on gear that you cant use because it gives you headaches.

Oh, so you're doing an ad hominem. Nice.
Do you realize this thread is about FF MILC supposedly dominating the market and DSLRs going to disappear? That it was supposed to be a discussion with arguments on both sides? You cannot just censor out opinions (or people) you don't like and declare it a "win" for your camp.

But if you're willing to discuss, maybe you can explain me what does this EOS R, Z6, Z7 - only existing models please! - bring over the Sonys.
My impression is that they're not groundbreaking in any way. Not even if you drop them.

[photoptimist]

NEWS


Panasonic will ATTACK....

LOL! You do realize that all these cameras are just nichey little consumer electronics products. They are not nuclear weapons. The only battle here is in the over-active imaginations of a few hyperventilating internet denizens.

Meanwhile most of us just yawn about all these supposed "gamechangers" that really change nothing other than adding some pennies in the pockets of the click-bait sites. We just go back to taking pictures.

[RobA_Oz]

LOL! You do realize that all these cameras are just nichey little consumer electronics products. They are not nuclear weapons. The only battle here is in the over-active imaginations of a few hyperventilating internet denizens.

Meanwhile most of us just yawn about all these supposed "gamechangers" that really change nothing other than adding some pennies in the pockets of the click-bait sites. We just go back to taking pictures.

All of that’s true, although not all commenters tend to hyperventilation, but it’s true for the moment. As you put it, “nichey little consumer electronics products” do however influence later mass-market cheaper products, and that’s what this thread started out talking about.

I took surfar’s note that he used an Olympus OM-D E-5 II as advice, and had a look at one recently, only because a recent back injury forced me to reconsider a walking tour of the UK with my K-1 et al. Aside from the facts that it’s extremely light (even coupled with the “tourist” 14-150 Zuiko) and that its IQ wouldn’t approach that of the K-1 in some instances, I found the EVF to be a big improvement on the body’s E-10 cousin’s EVF, not to mention that of my little Fujifilm X-30. The combo is currently available in Oz for around the same money as the KP. Retired Baby Boom types like me, who’ll probably need back surgery before they’re much older may well find themselves to be a receptive market for MFT mirrorless in the near future, but not the Z6/7 let alone the A7/9 systems.

That said, if it existed, I’d probably still take a K-1 with an interchangeable OVF/EVF over just about anything else and bring the back surgery forward a couple of years.

[surfar]

I took surfar’s note that he used an Olympus OM-D E-5 II as advice, and had a look at one recently,

Ok, i wouldnt mention the Mk2...i only have first edition....When the Mk2 pops up at a good price(i look most days) i will get one.

Great little cameras,that Mk2 has pixelshift but 8 times,it moves half a pixel at a time.Touchscreen and a few other modern things.

Just excellent cameras in good light.

---------- Post added 09-15-18 at 01:14 PM ----------

“tourist” 14-150 Zuiko)

Was it 2nd edition?

Whats your opinion,its a toss up between that and Panasonic 100-300 mk2 @ the moment for me.

[repaap]

I happen to have oly E5MII and it is okay, but it is quite far from being great. Especially when one compares it to larget format and I hate that EVF. Almost always using screen and touch mode deactivated.

But it is okay camera. There is something what really put’s me off. Can’t put my finger on it. I meand video looks good, but it compresses weirdly. Same goes to pictures. And when it gets little dim, it is unusable after ISO 800(video). But these new big beasts are on other level.

Oh, about prize. I always mean €. It is currency at here.

[surfar]

And when it gets little dim

Yes, thats the thing a 1/4 sensor is excellent with good light...full sensor works in dim light..use what suits.

---------- Post added 09-15-18 at 07:41 PM ----------

most of us just yawn about all these supposed "gamechangers"

The recent announcements are merely the starters before the main meal, new image capturing realms will be opened up for people who could only dream in past times.Its not long and most of the cards are on the table.

[repaap]

I think that I’ll have one more of these DSLR..or, next one in few yrs could definetly be mirrorless. It is interesting how things evolve. Mirrorless went from small and okayish EVF to DSLR size and good EVF. They really listen userbase in developing these. When they have good one in 2000 € with almost DSLR handling and smart extras, I’ll upgrade my oly to aps-c or FF. No more 4/3 for me. I’v taken couple snaps with my K-3 and it shows it’s age and usability, but there is great potential in aps-c still, has always been. It will be interesting times ahead. Best would be IF I could use my great pentax glass, with AF and all

[Rondec]

LOL! You do realize that all these cameras are just nichey little consumer electronics products. They are not nuclear weapons. The only battle here is in the over-active imaginations of a few hyperventilating internet denizens.

Meanwhile most of us just yawn about all these supposed "gamechangers" that really change nothing other than adding some pennies in the pockets of the click-bait sites. We just go back to taking pictures.

There is a real tendency for each of us to look at our own style of photography and our own needs and believe that they are everyone else's.

To me a lot of the improvements of mirrorless are neither here nor there. EVFs, in the end are just a slightly different way of framing your image. They have some helps which might make a difference if you are shooting manual focus lenses all of the time or just can't figure out how to avoid blowing highlights, but for most experienced photographers they are just a slightly different way of doing exactly the same thing. Probably the biggest thing that having an EVF on your camera does is that it allows you to lose your mirror and make your camera thinner. As we have seen recently, mirrorless cameras have increased in size quite a bit and while you can find quite small ones, many of them are approaching SLR sizes.

As far as video goes, I still think it is more of a box that is to be checked. People like surfar really do shoot a lot of video, but none of the folks I know who own shoot much video with their SLRs. Some wedding photographers are branching out into that. I just don't think it is as big a driver of ILC sales as what people here on the Forum seem to imply. This is probably more of a negative factor, in that if it is absent, it can cut down sales, but its presence doesn't actually drive sales that much.

Super fast frame rates seem to be the big thing now. Electronic shutters that can do 1/32000 second and 20 frames per second. I'm sure that will get up to 60 fps eventually, same as video, but if you aren't shooting sports, I really don't think this moves the needle much. 7 or 8 fps is plenty for me -- probably more than I need in most situations.

Even the focus on high iso performance is a bit of a distraction. It is nice to have, but I would rather have better low iso (100 to 800) performance. Better dynamic range. Good colors. Extremely low noise in the shadows. And that's where cameras like the A9 actually are a step backward. I know it isn't a landscape camera, but I just don't care much about the sort of specifications that Sony and Fuji seem to be pushing these days and I don't think I am alone there.

It is easy to get a skewed version of reality if you spend much time on the Forum. Everyone is shooting sports and needs 15 fps with fast tracking auto focus, photographers want 4K, no, 8K video, photos are being destroyed by shutter shake and the list goes on. But most folks just want good performance with straight out of camera jpegs and not to think too much about their camera at all.

[repaap]

There is a real tendency for each of us to look at our own style of photography and our own needs and believe that they are everyone else's.

To me a lot of the improvements of mirrorless are neither here nor there. EVFs, in the end are just a slightly different way of framing your image. They have some helps which might make a difference if you are shooting manual focus lenses all of the time or just can't figure out how to avoid blowing highlights, but for most experienced photographers they are just a slightly different way of doing exactly the same thing. Probably the biggest thing that having an EVF on your camera does is that it allows you to lose your mirror and make your camera thinner. As we have seen recently, mirrorless cameras have increased in size quite a bit and while you can find quite small ones, many of them are approaching SLR sizes.

As far as video goes, I still think it is more of a box that is to be checked. People like surfar really do shoot a lot of video, but none of the folks I know who own shoot much video with their SLRs. Some wedding photographers are branching out into that. I just don't think it is as big a driver of ILC sales as what people here on the Forum seem to imply. This is probably more of a negative factor, in that if it is absent, it can cut down sales, but its presence doesn't actually drive sales that much.

Super fast frame rates seem to be the big thing now. Electronic shutters that can do 1/32000 second and 20 frames per second. I'm sure that will get up to 60 fps eventually, same as video, but if you aren't shooting sports, I really don't think this moves the needle much. 7 or 8 fps is plenty for me -- probably more than I need in most situations.

Even the focus on high iso performance is a bit of a distraction. It is nice to have, but I would rather have better low iso (100 to 800) performance. Better dynamic range. Good colors. Extremely low noise in the shadows. And that's where cameras like the A9 actually are a step backward. I know it isn't a landscape camera, but I just don't care much about the sort of specifications that Sony and Fuji seem to be pushing these days and I don't think I am alone there.

It is easy to get a skewed version of reality if you spend much time on the Forum. Everyone is shooting sports and needs 15 fps with fast tracking auto focus, photographers want 4K, no, 8K video, photos are being destroyed by shutter shake and the list goes on. But most folks just want good performance with straight out of camera jpegs and not to think too much about their camera at all.

in other words, you can take 15 fps for 20 minutes and end result can be this and that. How about nailing 3-5 good ones instead? also I think that 4K is already too much. Not to mention 8K. gimmic. We love TV-series Emmerdale at Finland. they went to UHD or something similar. when I visit my mother I can look that thing on 55” 4K tv, wishing to get back to time when it was just HD or even less. same goes to a lot of videos at youtube...but you cant stop the evolution. does anyone ever think that this curved oled tv and 8 K things are just for guys trying to sell to you things that you do not need. great sales man can be spotted when he can sell sand to sahara.

oh, and edit: some of the best sport shooters don’t actually use burst so often. they try to time their shot perfectly. Make them feel like more professional. not so long when phrase spray and pray was more or less like cursing..no?

[RobA_Oz]

Ok, i wouldnt mention the Mk2...i only have first edition....When the Mk2 pops up at a good price(i look most days) i will get one.

Great little cameras,that Mk2 has pixelshift but 8 times,it moves half a pixel at a time.Touchscreen and a few other modern things.

Just excellent cameras in good light.

---------- Post added 09-15-18 at 01:14 PM ----------



Was it 2nd edition?

Whats your opinion,its a toss up between that and Panasonic 100-300 mk2 @ the moment for me.

The MkII seems to go for around $800AU on eBay – that seems OK to me. The deals (Camera House and on eBay) all seem to have the 2nd edition 14-150 bundled. I haven’t looked at that Panasonic zoom but Lens Rentals review of the 14-150 ranks it higher than the Panasonic equivalent for distortion and CA.

[photoptimist]

There is a real tendency for each of us to look at our own style of photography and our own needs and believe that they are everyone else's.

Exactly!

The flaw in the belief in gamechangers is in believing that ILCs are a single game to be won or lost by a single camera or even a single camera company.

Some people think DSLRs are too big and others think MILCs are too small.

Some people love EVFs and some people love OVFs.

Some people think cameras should have a minimum of buttons and dials while others want more and more controls (e.g., I love the K-1's third dial)

Some people demand pro-video (and willing to pay for the software and hardware costs of video) and others only wants stills.

Whatever the performance dimension: high ISO, burst, buffer, storage media systems, GPS, on-board flash, etc. etc. , there are people willing to pay more to get more and others who don't care or even prefer that their camera NOT have that feature.


The most advanced new graphene-fiber tennis racket may be a gamechanger for tennis but it is useless to those playing rugby.

[normhead]

Once you find what you want, time wasted researching new gear is wasted. I can only assume these types of threads are for people who haven't found what they want. And given that they haven't found what they want, how reliable can their opinions of what's coming be? A colorado of not finding what you want, is not knowing what you want. If you know what you want you can find it.

These threads tend to be the habitat of those wandering in the wilderness.

[mee]

Once you find what you want, time wasted researching new gear is wasted. I can only assume these types of threads are for people who haven't found what they want. And given that they haven't found what they want, how reliable can their opinions of what's coming be? A colorado of not finding what you want, is not knowing what you want. If you know what you want you can find it.

These threads tend to be the habitat of those wandering in the wilderness.

Yet you're here on the forum, with us, wasting time too.

Some people spend time watching tv, a movie, or reading a book for entertainment... others spend it online.

[RonHendriks1966]

Once you find what you want, time wasted researching new gear is wasted. I can only assume these types of threads are for people who haven't found what they want. And given that they haven't found what they want, how reliable can their opinions of what's coming be? A colorado of not finding what you want, is not knowing what you want. If you know what you want you can find it.

But those people are very important with feeding the second hand market with very good hardly used as new camera gear.

[ffking]

Just out of interest, what are people's thoughts on how this affects third party lens manufacturers - there are still millions of (D)SLRs out there needing lenses, and no doubt new models will continue to be released - but all the attention is on mirrorless, and if it can maintain this momentum, I can seethe switch-over being much more rapid than anticipated, just as the switch to digital was - but if it stalls, for whatever reason, third party could find themselves over-investing in a new mount. The cautionary approach would be to just go on with the lenses they've been making and let people use adaptors, but that could leave them looking behind the curve. The reason I'm wondering is that there's still no release date on the the Tokina Opera 50/1.4 - are they having difficulties or second thoughts?