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09-08-2018, 10:22 AM   #1
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Full frame Mirrorless cameras...are they going to dominate ? Who will buy?

I've been reading a lot ..this past week or so about the new FF mirrorless cameras from Nikon and Canon. Some think they have significant advantages over full frame DSLR's and perhaps they do. I don't really know. I've been a photographer for half a century and in that time have...and used...everything from medium format TLR's (Mamiya, Yashica) , rangefinder 35mm (Leica), SLR's, medium format SLR's/folders, etc. and of course DSLR's.

I've always liked...preferred...DSLR's and before them SLR's...and that preference has existed with me, for over half a century. At this point being an old guy, I'm going to stick with what I have in modern digital cameras...K-1, K5, K10D and the attendant lenses..as I'm happy with this stuff and it would be a considerable expense to change brands/type of camera, new lens mount lenses, etc.

But I do wonder with all the hype going on about the new full framer mirrorless.... Nikon Z series (camera and lens) and the new Canon R series...and with apparently Panasonic preparing to enter the fray...are these full framer mirrorlesss jobs going to eventually...say 5-10 years...displace the full frame DSLR ?

Some of the advantages that come to mind about the new mirrorless FF's are lighter weight, smaller size, no mirror flopping around, less complex. Then of course there are other considerations...sure you can get Nikon/Canon convertors to use the Nikon/Canon DSLR mount lenses...but these new cameras ...both Nikon/Canon...have their own lens line, which I think as individual budget allows...will be the way most people go, particularly those just choosing a FF camera body for the first time.

Anyways that's my idle speculation....what's yours ?

As far as mirrorless, FF bodies dominating the full frame market and DSLR systems eventually dying off...I don't know....but maybe you do..or have a better guess than me ?

Switching to a mirrorless full frame from Nikon/Canon is a pricey decision for many...which may come under the I want, but don't need.

Wonder asmore faster, FF mirrorless lenses come on line...if the mirrorless FF will eventually sulpant the DSLR FF ?

Whaddaya think and why ?

09-08-2018, 10:38 AM - 1 Like   #2
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I feel like I've already read this post. There is no K-1 to win anymore.
09-08-2018, 10:48 AM - 1 Like   #3
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Well, just also what you self wrote there I’v liked DSLR and SLR before that. Just something great to have OVF and mirror going. Even when it was hard to see nikon and all going FF DSLR and Pentax not doing the same(a while a go) I thought that it would be neat if Pentax would too, but my K-3 was enough. (I made jump immediatelly when K-1 came available). Now mirrorless, many companyes going for it, because of that hype and it is more possible than ever before. All going in with IBIS btw.. I would not feel pressure to get one even if Pentax model for my lenses would be available.

But it seems to be all about silent, fast burst and has to be great video too thing. If one is happy with mirrorless camera(almost any model) they might feel urge to get one of these new ones, just almost for the same reason that I went from K-3 to K-1. All mirrorless already have great burst and video. Now it would be possible with big known camera companyes too. They say it is cool, not Sony, many believes..

Last edited by repaap; 09-08-2018 at 11:49 AM.
09-08-2018, 10:56 AM - 1 Like   #4
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I won't be changing anytime soon for the simple reason that I can get the pictures I want with my K-1 and K-3, and although I use AFS, I generally shoot in full M ot TAV - I like to be in control - and that includes making my own decisions about how best to translate reality (seen through an OVF) into reduced dimensions and DR. I think, however, that people who didn't learn their photography in a tine when these things were the only choice you had, might think differently - although humans being humans there will be a backlash if mirrorless becomes too dominant. In the meantime, I think a hard core of photographers over 55 say, will ensure DSLRs stay around for as long as the manufacturers invest in them - the crunch point might come, like it did with film, when no R&D is going into film stock or SLRs because of falling sales, which would create a death spiral - but I think/hope that enough people will go on valuing OVFs to stop that happening, though at the moment they suddenly seem like yesterday's technology.

09-08-2018, 10:56 AM - 3 Likes   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Who will buy?
Those who prefer and/or need the form factor and/or EVF, perhaps?

Traditionally, the same question might have been asked regarding SLR vs. non-reflex viewfinder/rangefinder 35mm film cameras. For many purposes the optical reflex viewing system is a hindrance. I have a number on non-SLR 35mm cameras that I thoroughly enjoy shooting with, despite the lack of precision framing and poor options for close-up or distance work.

Of course, the current crop of mirrorless FF cameras don't have those deficiencies. What they do have is an electronic viewfinder that may or may not prove more useful than an optical finder and size/weight that may or may not provide easier handling than SLR options. I seriously considered the Sony A7 instead of my K-3 back in 2014. The price points were quite similar and the A7 was and continues to be a huge bargain in a FF camera. It was the EVF that swung the decision definitely away from the A7. Poor AF performance and lack of IBIS (at the time) sealed it.

Four years later and the Sony EVF still gives me vertigo and the A7R III has bulk approaching that of the K-1. Perhaps the Nikon and Canon versions might prove better behaved and better in the hand.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 09-08-2018 at 11:02 AM.
09-08-2018, 11:08 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Those who prefer and/or need the form factor and/or EVF, perhaps?

Traditionally, the same question might have been asked regarding SLR vs. non-reflex viewfinder/rangefinder 35mm film cameras. For many purposes the optical reflex viewing system is a hindrance. I have a number on non-SLR 35mm cameras that I thoroughly enjoy shooting with, despite the lack of precision framing and poor options for close-up or distance work.

Of course, the current crop of mirrorless FF cameras don't have those deficiencies. What they do have is an electronic viewfinder that may or may not prove more useful than an optical finder and size/weight that may or may not provide easier handling than SLR options. I seriously considered the Sony A7 instead of my K-3 back in 2014. The price points were quite similar and the A7 was and continues to be a huge bargain in a FF camera. It was the EVF that swung the decision definitely away from the A7. Poor AF performance and lack of IBIS (at the time) sealed it.

Four years later and the Sony EVF still gives me vertigo and the A7R has bulk approaching that of the K-1. Perhaps the Nikon and Canon versions might be better behaved and better in the hand.


Steve
You mention the EVF . First camera I had with an EVF was my little Canon G 12. The EVF is really good on thei little machine, the regular viewfinder...not so much. On my K-1 I find that I occasionally use my EVF on it, but mostly use the regular optical viewfinder. I find the EVF on both my G 12 and K-1 fabulous though for getting interesting subject angles...with little physical effort on my part. I find the K-1 EVF better than the G 12's and that is primarily because of the pretty well unlimited angles I can move the K1's monitor on the EVF.

In the end, I like the K1 system...where I have a great regular viewfinder and a great EVF. I don't know if the new Nikon Z and Canon R have a great regular viewfinder with the same movement of the K1...or even have a regular viewfinder...I wonder. I'm sure there will be plenty of tests coming up and it will be interesting to see ...what's what.
09-08-2018, 11:33 AM   #7
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Question?..Isn't an EVF camera just a super cell phone camera? I get the bigger sensor and all, but I have a little Fuji XP70 and its a EVF camera...
09-08-2018, 11:34 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Nikon Z series (camera and lens) and the new Canon R series...and with apparently Panasonic preparing to enter the fray...are these full framer mirrorlesss jobs going to eventually...say 5-10 years...displace the full frame DSLR ?

Anyways that's my idle speculation....what's yours ?
Eventually they probably will because they should be cheaper to produce and should be more reliable. EVFs are improving with every new generation. I'm afraid that's where you'll see most of the innovations that Nikon and Canon may come up with. Olympus and Fujifilm no longer make DSLRs and haven't for a while, Sony still has some, I think,, but they are not their main line. Will Pentax follow at some time? I would not be surprised that if they do, they brand it as Ricoh and pump a lot of resources into it, maybe acquiring a lens company. Either way I would not be surprised to see them acquire a lens company, since they obviously don't have enough resources to get enough new designs out.

09-08-2018, 11:35 AM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
On my K-1 I find that I occasionally use my EVF on it
Your K-1 does not have an EVF as usually defined. Neither does the G12. Both have a rear LCD monitor and optical viewfinders. Both the Nikon Z and Canon R have EVF similar to the Sony A7 series; all three lack any native optical viewfinder.


Steve
09-08-2018, 11:37 AM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Roadboat24 Quote
Question?..Isn't an EVF camera just a super cell phone camera? I get the bigger sensor and all, but I have a little Fuji XP70 and its a EVF camera...
No, you can't use them for phone calls!


Steve
09-08-2018, 11:49 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by ramseybuckeye Quote
I'm afraid that's where you'll see most of the innovations that Nikon and Canon may come up with.
Why did Nikon just release a 500 f5.6 PF prime, for DSLR mount?
09-08-2018, 12:26 PM   #12
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I do not think FF mirrorless will be dominating anytime soon.

It will be smaller sized APS-C and MFT that will continue to be most popular. Most people that buy ILC want things that smartphone can't bring, but still want a small and convienient package that give good enough IQ.
I suspect mirrorless is going to take over from below as they offer more in a smaller package. The small OVF on APS-C DSLR may not impress new users when they see much larger EVF used on APS-C/MFT MILC.

FF seems to be mostly about high end stuff for a small group of enthusiasts and an even smaller group of professionals. The high end stuff is used to increase status of the brand for selling more lower end stuff.

I think it will take longer time than most believe before mirrorless FF will take over from DSLR. If Canon and Nikon release one new FF lens every second month for mirrorless, it will take 10-15 years before they are where DSLR lenses are today.

Sales on DSLR may go down as it is now a mature product that users only replace when it breaks down. Some may invest in MILC as an addition to their DSLR system. So DSLR sales may go down and MILC sales go up, but it may not neccesarly mean that DSLR user group is getting smaller.
09-08-2018, 12:27 PM - 2 Likes   #13
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I think in the future most people will shoot mirrorless. That's not really a bad thing. I know that if one day DSLRs aren't sold any more or are in such a minority as to make them not really worth it, I wouldn't have a problem shooting mirrorless either. All cameras these days are good, and if you keep an open mind about it, you can make some great photography with pretty much any camera. EVFs are getting so good these days that it doesn't matter that much.


Today though, there are many features in both types of systems to make choosing one more dependent on your shooting style.


For example, if the eye-AF of the latest Sony cameras gives you less of a headache when shooting weddings, you should go with the Sony. If you like really compact APS-C lenses, maybe Fuji is really great. If you want high-end, long 400mm-800mm primes, it makes the most sense to go with Canon or Nikon. If you want a really rugged full-frame landscape camera at an excellent price, go with Pentax.

I think it's not good to be attached to any kind of camera. If you've tried the latest mirrorless cameras but prefer DSLRs, hey that's great. On the other hand, if the time comes when DSLRs become scarce, you could probably be pretty happy with mirrorless, too.
09-08-2018, 12:33 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by automorphism Quote
I think in the future most people will shoot mirrorless. That's not really a bad thing. I know that if one day DSLRs aren't sold any more or are in such a minority as to make them not really worth it, I wouldn't have a problem shooting mirrorless either. All cameras these days are good, and if you keep an open mind about it, you can make some great photography with pretty much any camera. EVFs are getting so good these days that it doesn't matter that much.


Today though, there are many features in both types of systems to make choosing one more dependent on your shooting style.


For example, if the eye-AF of the latest Sony cameras gives you less of a headache when shooting weddings, you should go with the Sony. If you like really compact APS-C lenses, maybe Fuji is really great. If you want high-end, long 400mm-800mm primes, it makes the most sense to go with Canon or Nikon. If you want a really rugged full-frame landscape camera at an excellent price, go with Pentax.

I think it's not good to be attached to any kind of camera. If you've tried the latest mirrorless cameras but prefer DSLRs, hey that's great. On the other hand, if the time comes when DSLRs become scarce, you could probably be pretty happy with mirrorless, too.
I couldn't agree more.
09-08-2018, 01:03 PM - 2 Likes   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
You mention the EVF . First camera I had with an EVF was my little Canon G 12. The EVF is really good on thei little machine, the regular viewfinder...not so much. On my K-1 I find that I occasionally use my EVF on it, but mostly use the regular optical viewfinder. I find the EVF on both my G 12 and K-1 fabulous though for getting interesting subject angles...with little physical effort on my part. I find the K-1 EVF better than the G 12's and that is primarily because of the pretty well unlimited angles I can move the K1's monitor on the EVF.

In the end, I like the K1 system...where I have a great regular viewfinder and a great EVF. I don't know if the new Nikon Z and Canon R have a great regular viewfinder with the same movement of the K1...or even have a regular viewfinder...I wonder. I'm sure there will be plenty of tests coming up and it will be interesting to see ...what's what.
I'm confused at what you said. Because the EVF is the screen you stick your eye near. It isn't the rear LCD panel. The K-1 has an LCD but does not have an EVF.


The newer EVFs are improving and I have yet to read a negative word of regular joes who have tried out the new Nikon Z's for instance... even gung-ho DSLR fans. With the mirrorless systems coming out now, they have a larger mount that is closer to the sensor so designing corrected and faster lenses is easier. And now can adopt zebra stripes/focus peaking in the viewfinder, plus instant zooming in, never having to take the camera off your eye to check the rear panel to see if you got the shot. And it is easier to offer a larger view in the EVF with a mirrorless it seems. The Nikon has an 100% .8x view which is pretty large for a digital body. The K-1 is set at .7x, the D850 at .75x, and the Canon R at .76x so we are moving upwards...


Plus 100% or near 100% coverage of the AF points across the view.. And for Canon and Nikon, these specs are simply the start.


Also, since all these brands are competing against one another, they will likely not rest on their laurels.


While this might not appeal to people who have been around DSLRs for 50 years, and have grown accustom to the world the way it is, it probably will to most other people. Especially newer generations that are used to smartphones and small mirrorless cameras.

I tried an original Sony A7 last year and was horrified at how awful it was but the A7 II I also tried was improved and the Olympus even better. And those were older gens all... that tech is improving a lot more rapidly than I expected.

I don't know if we'll see DSLRs go the way of the dino, but I suspect in 5 years the market will be more Mirrorless ILCs than DSLRs at the rate we're going at the moment.

That said, if it does, DSLRs should be cheap on the used/second hand market... which means bargains.
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