Fuji 100mp medium and cheaper 50 mp model. Will Pentax follow?

surfar · 09-13-2018, 09:22 PM - **1 Like**

Yes, you are 100% correct.

Originally posted by rawr

That would make it quite a show!

The show would be SOMETHING INCREDIBLE!...

I'll buy a lotto ticket,theres more chance of winning that than those 3 updates.

D1N0 · 09-14-2018, 05:03 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Mistral75

Isn't that just what Fujifilm are doing?

Only partly. I think they are also aiming high end full frame by making MF more portable.

**bobbotron** · 09-14-2018, 05:05 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by surfar

Maybe you 2 might go over to the Fuji forum and have a peek at the wildlife photos shot with the GFX in the Amazon jungle,some nice spotted pussy cats there.

I'm already on too many forums, I don't think it's healthy. :^D

**Digitalis** · 09-14-2018, 06:22 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Belnan

It seems Fuji is now poised to release two new medium format cameras. A "budget friendly" 50mp camera and a 100mp monster.

And they will, in all probability, fall flat on their faces. The niche that MF occupies isn't as competitive or demanding high volume production like 35mm format is. It really cheeses my onions when a company aggressively makes a move on a market without knowing the driving dynamics behind said market.

Increasing resolution seems to be a tone deaf move to me.. how about more bit depth, increased dynamic range, lower noise at High ISO, or extended LOW ISO? there is a userbase just waiting for such features - and the best Fuji can come up with is more pixels?

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Pentax is making MF field cameras. Always have. The competition are studio tools.

I have to respectfully disagree, Phase one and Leica S use leaf shutter lenses and the advantages they bring cannot be overlooked when it comes to on-location shoots with flash*. I agree that the Pentax 645Z is inherently more rugged than either phase or Leica cameras**, but it is only a matter of time before they produce a product of comparable durability.

* Sure Pentax have two leaf shutter options for the 645 System [four if you're willing to go without AE] but the lenses equipped with leaf shutters aren't current designs.

**as a standalone photographic tool - however accessories such as HSS flash capability, remote flash control, and flash units with native P-TTL capability are either nonexistant or lie distinctly outside of the mainstream, and effectively go unnoticed by anyone looking into getting into the system . [ I'm just bringing that up I work in manual control 100% of the time, why anyone wants TTL flash control is beyond me..lazy, vacant-brained millennials]

Last edited by Digitalis; 09-14-2018 at 06:37 AM.

**bobbotron** · 09-14-2018, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

*as a standalone photographic tool - however accessories such as HSS flash capability, remote flash control, and flash units with native P-TTL capability are either nonexistant or lie distinctly outside of the mainstream, and effectively go unnoticed by anyone looking into getting into the system . [ I'm just bringing that up I work in manual control 100% of the time, why anyone wants TTL flash control is beyond me..lazy, vacant-brained millennials]

Ha! Hear hear.

Mistral75 · 09-14-2018, 06:40 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Digitalis

(...) It really cheeses my onions when a company aggressively makes a move on a market without knowing the driving dynamics about said market.

(...)

...which isn't exactly the case of Fujifilm since they designed and produced their own medium format film cameras (GA645, GS645, GX645, GW670, GX680, GW690, GX617 and more), designed and produced for Hasselblad the H1D and H2D and their lenses and launched the GFX 50S two years ago and seven Fujinon GF lenses in the meantime.

**Digitalis** · 09-14-2018, 06:48 AM

Fuji has history in medium format i'm not debating that- however, much has changed since they were around. In the film days, fuji's medium format cameras and lenses were never high volume products, at least not on the scale that Canon and Nikon are presently up to. Personally from what I have seen: Fuji's offerings in MF have been met with lukewarm response among the commercial photography crowd. Phase one already have the high resolution market in the bag, 100mp is old news when hasselblad have 400Mp multishot backs.

Last edited by Digitalis; 09-14-2018 at 06:55 AM.

rawr · 09-14-2018, 07:19 AM

I wonder which 100 MP sensor Fuji will use?

IMX 211 (non BSI), which now been in production for a while, or the new BSI IMX461, which is likely to be more expensive. And will Fuji be first with the 150MP IMX411 sensor?

Application Image Sensor for Camera | Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation

Mistral75 · 09-14-2018, 07:27 AM - **1 Like**

Like Hasselblad, Phase One and Ricoh Imaging, Fujifilm are using the sensors Sony Semiconductors are providing and paying for them the price requested by Sony Semiconductors.

Up until now there were only FSI sensors: 50Mpix 33x44mm (IMX161) and 100Mpix 40x53.4mm (IMX211). Now the former is discounted and there are in addition two BSI sensors: a 100 Mpix 33x44mm (IMX461) and a 150Mpix 40x53.4mm (IMX411).

Hence Fujifilm's move and the launch of both the GFX 50R (entry level medium format camera with the now discounted IMX161) and the GFX 100S (their flagship with IMX461). Phase One made a different choice and launched the top-of-the-range XF IQ4 150MP (based on IMX411) first.

Mistral75 · 09-14-2018, 07:32 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by rawr

I wonder which 100 MP sensor Fuji will use?

IMX 211 (non BSI), which now been in production for a while, or the new BSI IMX461, which is likely to be more expensive. And will Fuji be first with the 150MP IMX411 sensor?

(...)

IMX461, which is smaller than IMX211 (33x44mm vs. 40x53.4mm). Being smaller than IMX211, IMX461 is probably cheaper, even though the former is FSI and the latter BSI.

The Fujinon GF lenses were designed for 33x44mm sensors, not for the 'full 645' 40x53.4mm sensors.

The first to use the 150Mpix 40x53.4mm BSI IMX411 sensor was Phase One with their XF IQ4 150MP, introduced on 28 August. Price is $52,000.

mtgmansf · 09-14-2018, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

Fuji has history in medium format i'm not debating that- however, much has changed since they were around. In the film days, fuji's medium format cameras and lenses were never high volume products, at least not on the scale that Canon and Nikon are presently up to. Personally from what I have seen: Fuji's offerings in MF have been met with lukewarm response among the commercial photography crowd. Phase one already have the high resolution market in the bag, 100mp is old news when hasselblad have 400Mp multishot backs.

I doubt the weather-sealed Fujifilm GFx50s is geared for the studio crowd. However, I have encountered several landscape photographers who have chosen and love this camera. I was also in a class where the instructor compared his D850 files to the GFX50s raw files - there was not much of a difference! Having a 100mp or 150mp, however, will thoroughly ensconce Fuji MP cameras in this and other categories, being the lightweight, highly portable MF camera system it is, cpmplete with all weather-sealed lenses and ultra-wides that actually go very wide. Also, there is the factor of cost and weight added with shuttered lenses. Here is a thoughtful article addressing the above:
https://fstoppers.com/originals/why-leaf-shutter-lenses-arent-important-fujifilm-gfx-50s-148161

Mistral75 · 09-14-2018, 07:41 AM

To distinguish themselves from the other medium format camera makers, in particular from what they call 'mirrorless medium format' (Fujifilm GFX and Hasselblad X1D), Phase One henceforth only propose cameras and backs with 40x53.4mm sensors (150Mpix BSI and 100Mpix FSI):

https://www.phaseone.com/~/media/NEW_WEB/camera-systems/CS-Documents/IQ-Digi...ge_270818.ashx

Here below one of their marketing diagrams:

rawr · 09-14-2018, 07:44 AM

Unrelated to digital camera usage, what depresses me, for example on the Sony chip site, is that a key selling point of these high megapixel sensors is their suitability for aerial and large area surveillance. Sigh.

Mistral75 · 09-14-2018, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by rawr

Unrelated to digital camera usage, what depresses me, for example on the Sony chip site, is that a key selling point of these high megapixel sensors is their suitability for aerial and large area surveillance. Sigh.

These markets, as well as the machine vision market (factory automation, intelligent transportation systems including automotive) are fast-growing markets, fond of imaging sensors of all sizes.

The digital camera market (excluding smartphones) is decreasing.

Where do you think R&D money and marketing money are flowing to? Which do you think are the key selling points of these newly developed sensors?

mtgmansf · 09-14-2018, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by rawr

Unrelated to digital camera usage, what depresses me, for example on the Sony chip site, is that a key selling point of these high megapixel sensors is their suitability for aerial and large area surveillance. Sigh.

All you have to do is use your browser, Google, or Facebook to be surveilled.

09-14-2018, 07:34 AM	#26
mtgmansf Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 321	Originally posted by Digitalis Fuji has history in medium format i'm not debating that- however, much has changed since they were around. In the film days, fuji's medium format cameras and lenses were never high volume products, at least not on the scale that Canon and Nikon are presently up to. Personally from what I have seen: Fuji's offerings in MF have been met with lukewarm response among the commercial photography crowd. Phase one already have the high resolution market in the bag, 100mp is old news when hasselblad have 400Mp multishot backs. I doubt the weather-sealed Fujifilm GFx50s is geared for the studio crowd. However, I have encountered several landscape photographers who have chosen and love this camera. I was also in a class where the instructor compared his D850 files to the GFX50s raw files - there was not much of a difference! Having a 100mp or 150mp, however, will thoroughly ensconce Fuji MP cameras in this and other categories, being the lightweight, highly portable MF camera system it is, cpmplete with all weather-sealed lenses and ultra-wides that actually go very wide. Also, there is the factor of cost and weight added with shuttered lenses. Here is a thoughtful article addressing the above: https://fstoppers.com/originals/why-leaf-shutter-lenses-arent-important-fujifilm-gfx-50s-148161 Last edited by mtgmansf; 09-14-2018 at 07:58 AM. Reason: addition...

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09-13-2018, 09:22 PM - 1 Like	#16
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Yes, you are 100% correct. Originally posted by rawr That would make it quite a show! The show would be SOMETHING INCREDIBLE!... I'll buy a lotto ticket,theres more chance of winning that than those 3 updates.

09-14-2018, 05:03 AM - 1 Like	#17
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by Mistral75 Isn't that just what Fujifilm are doing? Only partly. I think they are also aiming high end full frame by making MF more portable.

09-14-2018, 05:05 AM - 1 Like	#18
bobbotron Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Ottawa, ON Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,349	Originally posted by surfar Maybe you 2 might go over to the Fuji forum and have a peek at the wildlife photos shot with the GFX in the Amazon jungle,some nice spotted pussy cats there. I'm already on too many forums, I don't think it's healthy. :^D

09-14-2018, 06:22 AM - 2 Likes	#19
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by Belnan It seems Fuji is now poised to release two new medium format cameras. A "budget friendly" 50mp camera and a 100mp monster. And they will, in all probability, fall flat on their faces. The niche that MF occupies isn't as competitive or demanding high volume production like 35mm format is. It really cheeses my onions when a company aggressively makes a move on a market without knowing the driving dynamics behind said market. Increasing resolution seems to be a tone deaf move to me.. how about more bit depth, increased dynamic range, lower noise at High ISO, or extended LOW ISO? there is a userbase just waiting for such features - and the best Fuji can come up with is more pixels? Originally posted by Pål Jensen Pentax is making MF field cameras. Always have. The competition are studio tools. I have to respectfully disagree, Phase one and Leica S use leaf shutter lenses and the advantages they bring cannot be overlooked when it comes to on-location shoots with flash. I agree that the Pentax 645Z is inherently more rugged than either phase or Leica cameras, but it is only a matter of time before they produce a product of comparable durability. Sure Pentax have two leaf shutter options for the 645 System [four if you're willing to go without AE] but the lenses equipped with leaf shutters aren't current designs. *as a standalone photographic tool - however accessories such as HSS flash capability, remote flash control, and flash units with native P-TTL capability are either nonexistant or lie distinctly outside of the mainstream, and effectively go unnoticed by anyone looking into getting into the system . [ I'm just bringing that up I work in manual control 100% of the time, why anyone wants TTL flash control is beyond me..lazy, vacant-brained millennials] Last edited by Digitalis; 09-14-2018 at 06:37 AM.*

09-14-2018, 06:33 AM	#20
bobbotron Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Ottawa, ON Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,349	Originally posted by Digitalis *as a standalone photographic tool - however accessories such as HSS flash capability, remote flash control, and flash units with native P-TTL capability are either nonexistant or lie distinctly outside of the mainstream, and effectively go unnoticed by anyone looking into getting into the system . [ I'm just bringing that up I work in manual control 100% of the time, why anyone wants TTL flash control is beyond me..lazy, vacant-brained millennials] Ha! Hear hear.

09-14-2018, 06:40 AM - 2 Likes	#21
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by Digitalis (...) It really cheeses my onions when a company aggressively makes a move on a market without knowing the driving dynamics about said market. (...) ...which isn't exactly the case of Fujifilm since they designed and produced their own medium format film cameras (GA645, GS645, GX645, GW670, GX680, GW690, GX617 and more), designed and produced for Hasselblad the H1D and H2D and their lenses and launched the GFX 50S two years ago and seven Fujinon GF lenses in the meantime.

09-14-2018, 06:48 AM	#22
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Fuji has history in medium format i'm not debating that- however, much has changed since they were around. In the film days, fuji's medium format cameras and lenses were never high volume products, at least not on the scale that Canon and Nikon are presently up to. Personally from what I have seen: Fuji's offerings in MF have been met with lukewarm response among the commercial photography crowd. Phase one already have the high resolution market in the bag, 100mp is old news when hasselblad have 400Mp multishot backs. Last edited by Digitalis; 09-14-2018 at 06:55 AM.

09-14-2018, 07:19 AM	#23
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	I wonder which 100 MP sensor Fuji will use? IMX 211 (non BSI), which now been in production for a while, or the new BSI IMX461, which is likely to be more expensive. And will Fuji be first with the 150MP IMX411 sensor? Application Image Sensor for Camera \| Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation

09-14-2018, 07:27 AM - 1 Like	#24
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Like Hasselblad, Phase One and Ricoh Imaging, Fujifilm are using the sensors Sony Semiconductors are providing and paying for them the price requested by Sony Semiconductors. Up until now there were only FSI sensors: 50Mpix 33x44mm (IMX161) and 100Mpix 40x53.4mm (IMX211). Now the former is discounted and there are in addition two BSI sensors: a 100 Mpix 33x44mm (IMX461) and a 150Mpix 40x53.4mm (IMX411). Hence Fujifilm's move and the launch of both the GFX 50R (entry level medium format camera with the now discounted IMX161) and the GFX 100S (their flagship with IMX461). Phase One made a different choice and launched the top-of-the-range XF IQ4 150MP (based on IMX411) first.

09-14-2018, 07:32 AM - 1 Like	#25
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by rawr I wonder which 100 MP sensor Fuji will use? IMX 211 (non BSI), which now been in production for a while, or the new BSI IMX461, which is likely to be more expensive. And will Fuji be first with the 150MP IMX411 sensor? (...) IMX461, which is smaller than IMX211 (33x44mm vs. 40x53.4mm). Being smaller than IMX211, IMX461 is probably cheaper, even though the former is FSI and the latter BSI. The Fujinon GF lenses were designed for 33x44mm sensors, not for the 'full 645' 40x53.4mm sensors. The first to use the 150Mpix 40x53.4mm BSI IMX411 sensor was Phase One with their XF IQ4 150MP, introduced on 28 August. Price is $52,000.

09-14-2018, 07:41 AM	#27
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	To distinguish themselves from the other medium format camera makers, in particular from what they call 'mirrorless medium format' (Fujifilm GFX and Hasselblad X1D), Phase One henceforth only propose cameras and backs with 40x53.4mm sensors (150Mpix BSI and 100Mpix FSI): https://www.phaseone.com/~/media/NEW_WEB/camera-systems/CS-Documents/IQ-Digi...ge_270818.ashx Here below one of their marketing diagrams:

09-14-2018, 07:44 AM	#28
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Unrelated to digital camera usage, what depresses me, for example on the Sony chip site, is that a key selling point of these high megapixel sensors is their suitability for aerial and large area surveillance. Sigh.

09-14-2018, 07:53 AM	#29
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by rawr Unrelated to digital camera usage, what depresses me, for example on the Sony chip site, is that a key selling point of these high megapixel sensors is their suitability for aerial and large area surveillance. Sigh. These markets, as well as the machine vision market (factory automation, intelligent transportation systems including automotive) are fast-growing markets, fond of imaging sensors of all sizes. The digital camera market (excluding smartphones) is decreasing. Where do you think R&D money and marketing money are flowing to? Which do you think are the key selling points of these newly developed sensors?

09-14-2018, 08:03 AM	#30
mtgmansf Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 321	Originally posted by rawr Unrelated to digital camera usage, what depresses me, for example on the Sony chip site, is that a key selling point of these high megapixel sensors is their suitability for aerial and large area surveillance. Sigh. All you have to do is use your browser, Google, or Facebook to be surveilled.