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09-19-2018, 12:26 PM - 1 Like   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by Culture Quote
NEVER, EVER, EVER and I am saying NEVER say you are switching systems on PF.
It's like when young engineers out of school come to me, ask for advice, then they say "no, I prefer to do it my way", then I smile , watch them fail and come back , and say "Ah you were right, how did you know that?"
It's the same for cameras, except what happens, after they switch, they can't switch back because they've already spent the money , it's too late even if the photos will be the same, and usually the photographs taken after switching are the same as before. It's a complete fallacy that you will improve your photographs by switching brands. A way to really improve your photographs is to read books, go to trainings and workshops (not about gear, but about photography). Go go go , get a Nikon, get a Sony, get a Canon... you will have spend tons of money and your know-how in photography will have not progress at all , you'll still be taking the same photos, just with a different brand.

09-19-2018, 12:30 PM - 2 Likes   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by Culture Quote
NEVER, EVER, EVER and I am saying NEVER say you are switching systems on PF.
No matter how good your intentions are, PITCH forks will be raised.
As I've alluded to in the Guidelines for New Members, recently added to the forum rules, it's important to remember that - unlike some other popular forums - this is a brand-specific enthusiast website, where the majority of members - new and old - are primarily interested in enjoying discussion about Pentax and related matters.

We have the Non-Pentax Cameras forum as a means of keeping the majority of non-Pentax content separate from the main forums, but that doesn't segregate members. We all have access to every forum, regardless of the brands we favour.

It would be nice if we could all discuss any brand, our curiosities, interests and intentions without being defensive or taking offence. Yet it's incumbent on each member to consider the dynamics and diverse membership of these forums and understand that the overwhelming preference here is for Pentax equipment - to prepare them for the inevitable push-back they will almost-certainly receive (understandable on a brand specific site, I'm afraid) and in consideration of the majority. That aside, all of us here have a responsibility to remain courteous and friendly to each other.

This isn't a poke at the OP (as I'm sure he knows). I mention it to clarify what should be obvious to our established members, whatever their brand interests, and for the benefit of newer members feeling their way around
09-19-2018, 12:58 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You missed the point. When photographying birds with blue sky in the background, most likely you aren't are eye level with the bird, you get the bottom view, and the bottom view isn't very nice. In addition, when you shoot birds against the sky, the bird is between the sky and you are at the ground level, that mean, unless the sun is in your back and shines on the bird, the side of the bird you are shooting is in the shadow, that's the opposite of what you should do to have the bird valued in the frame. I feel like you understand camera specs well, but you don't have any particular orientation with regards to how to compose a beautiful photograph. When the birds fly in the sky, it is not the right condition to get compelling photographs. That is why, IMO , the only good BIF photographs are when the birds are flying close to the ground level and the background is not the sky but something darker, such as brown and dark greens.
I don't know how a good photograph looks like to you, but here are some images taken against blu sky by some wildlife photographers that I follow. Maybe you will find some inspiration by watching at their photos. You can learn a lot if you know how to look instead of presenting theories of how bad is to shoot BIF against sky.

cdn.photographylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bird-in-Flight-3.jpg

food quarrel ????? by Ahn . b . k - Photo 243857989 / 500px

a frontal attack ????? by Ahn . b . k - Photo 242439813 / 500px

duel ????? by Ahn . b . k - Photo 242318629 / 500px

????? by Ahn . b . k - Photo 237130623 / 500px

???? transfer by Ahn . b . k - Photo 214543213 / 500px

??????? by Ahn . b . k - Photo 204850511 / 500px

a white-tailed eagle by Ahn . b . k - Photo 183966549 / 500px

The rowdy.... by Arno van Zon - Photo 204634423 / 500px

hanging time... by Arno van Zon - Photo 197728353 / 500px

Dive, dive, dive... by Arno van Zon - Photo 194487023 / 500px

---------- Post added 09-19-18 at 08:10 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It's like when young engineers out of school come to me, ask for advice, then they say "no, I prefer to do it my way", then I smile , watch them fail and come back , and say "Ah you were right, how did you know that?"
It's the same for cameras, except what happens, after they switch, they can't switch back because they've already spent the money , it's too late even if the photos will be the same, and usually the photographs taken after switching are the same as before. It's a complete fallacy that you will improve your photographs by switching brands. A way to really improve your photographs is to read books, go to trainings and workshops (not about gear, but about photography). Go go go , get a Nikon, get a Sony, get a Canon... you will have spend tons of money and your know-how in photography will have not progress at all , you'll still be taking the same photos, just with a different brand.
Well, I go to workshops, I even organise photo tours where I invite known photographers, I read a lot about how to combine 3 elements: the subject, the background, the light. I hate technical data, I don't follow reviewers who post lab tests and I do spend money in renting all kind of gear because it's fun and I learn new approaches by shooting with different cameras. I'm not an engineer either. My conclusions are the same each time I have the chance to shoot with pro photographers: a proper gear makes the difference when comes to having constant keepers and not random results.

If you didn't find that already, then I'm afraid you only fool yourself.
09-19-2018, 01:22 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Well, I go to workshops, I even organise photo tours where I invite known photographers
I was not talking about you.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I don't know how a good photograph looks like to you
You did not understand because you are looking for technical (machine driven) perfection.

You know what, the D500 is nothing. If the machine driven photography was so valuable, we could design and manufacture a machine that automatically focus, frame and track, all birds would be in perfect focus, perfectly centered in the frame. But the value of those photographs will be so little that no company that has the capability to develop such machine will ever do it. We do military equipment to intercept missiles, we could use the artillerie to shoot BIF photographs, missile intercept guidance equipment can do it, if that's the axis on which we should develop photography.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
a proper gear makes the difference when comes to having constant keepers and not random results.
Basically if it is only a mater of money to buy the gear that gets you the photos, you can buy the photos already taken for less money and it's faster. It's you who is completely out of the plot, you mix up money and photography.

---------- Post added 19-09-18 at 22:35 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
If you didn't find that already, then I'm afraid you only fool yourself.
Well, we could buy the top of the line equipment photos for a hundred thousand dollars, it's just that the value of best photographs cannot pay for it. Usually, selling workshops and selling the switch from Pentax to Nikon or Pentax to Nikon makes much more money than taking photographs. That is were the average photographer gets fooled, everything around camera is business in disguise, he is just being used to make up the money for the guys who are promoting switching of camera brands. When you convince someone to switch , he will sell his current equipment at a loss and spend a ton of money into a new mount camera and lenses, and then if you point out another weakness to have him switch again, it's going to be more revenue and profit for the camera shop. It's the same business like intermediaries in the stock markets, the more stock holder sell and buy the more frees they get, that if why they animate the trade market by making things more positive or more negative than they actually are in order to trigger more volumes of sell and buy.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-19-2018 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Unfriendly comment removed.
09-19-2018, 01:53 PM - 1 Like   #170
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Dan & biz-engineer - whilst there is useful content in the posts from both of you, I am going to ask you both (and any others involved in your discussion) to either let this go now, or end the directly or indirectly negative comments towards each other. However courteously they may be presented, it's not the tone we want on these forums. Please see my recent post to all members regarding that. Thank you
09-19-2018, 01:53 PM - 2 Likes   #171
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Ladies and gentlemen:
Another moderator has already commented. I've edited a few recent posts to keep things friendly.
No more personal attacks please. I hate closing threads or issuing thread bans. Let's not go there please?
09-19-2018, 01:54 PM   #172
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Snap! I see you and I are both here Mike!
09-19-2018, 01:54 PM - 1 Like   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Snap! I see you and I are both here Mike!
Ha ha

Thanks for the level-headed intervention, Mark. Much appreciated

09-19-2018, 01:55 PM - 1 Like   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote

You did not understand because you are looking for technical (machine driven) perfection.

You know what, the D500 is nothing. If the machine driven photography was so valuable, we could design and manufacture a machine that automatically focus, frame and track, all birds would be in perfect focus, perfectly centered in the frame. But the value of those photographs will be so little than no company that has the capability to develop such machine will ever do it. We do military equipment to intercept missiles, we could all BIF shooters use the missile intercept equipment, if that's the axis on which we should develop photography.
I do understand a simple fact. Each time I go out with very capable wildlife shooters, they tell the same things to enthusiasts: learn the technique, learn to control the light, learn how to get close to subjects, learn your camera and last (but not less important), practice a lot. Once the enthusiast photographers start to get better and better results, the Pro photographers will give you the same advice: buy a proper gear for consistancy. I learned a lot about af when I was using K-5 II and K-3 II. And I mean it. Then I learned a lot also when I started to get more serious about wildlife to deal with the shortcomings of my camera, a Canon 6D. When I got even serious about wildlife, I bought 5D Mark IV. In all this time I got the chance to shoot with different cameras from different manufacturers and I learnd new approaches. I know that with all the techniques in the world, I get better results at BIF with 1Dx Mark II or D5 than I get with 5D Mark IV. And by better I mean more consistent results. When the experienced photographers take my camera to take some higher resolution images than they get from 1Dx/D4, they get great results, but I often hear them say "I missed this by a hair", "the wings are not how I want", "come on camera, move", etc.

I do want to get at the level of wildlife photographers that I follow and as much as I want, practicing each day or a K1 will not get me where I want. Because a proper gear is also important for the ones with high standards.

For occasional wildlife I don't need more than my camera. But for getting the best results, a fast camera with a fast lens will get me there. And as much as I wanted not to give credit to a pro photographer a year ago, he may be right when he told me that I will end up with a 5DsR or a similar camera for high resolution images and a 1Dx Mark II for "living dangerous".

---------- Post added 09-19-18 at 09:01 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Ha ha

Thanks for the level-headed intervention, Mark. Much appreciated
Ah, forums and their shortcomings... Not been able to see the other person is the worst thing when comes to debating over a subject because it may look like we are fighting. A smiley face at the end of a phrase is not enough unfortunately to understand that the discussion has to be a relaxed one.

Please delete any comment that you find inapropiate. I don't know which are and I don't know how I can delete a comment on the mobile version of the website.
09-19-2018, 02:11 PM - 1 Like   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote

Ah, forums and their shortcomings... Not been able to see the other person is the worst thing when comes to debating over a subject because it may look like we are fighting. A smiley face at the end of a phrase is not enough unfortunately to understand that the discussion has to be a relaxed one.

Please delete any comment that you find inapropiate. I don't know which are and I don't know how I can delete a comment on the mobile version of the website.
All good, carry on.
09-19-2018, 02:30 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
And as much as I wanted not to give credit to a pro photographer a year ago, he may be right when he told me that I will end up with a 5DsR or a similar camera for high resolution images and a 1Dx Mark II for "living dangerous".
Camera systems dedicated to wildlife cost a lot of money, very expensive, it is not uncommon to see prime lenses for sale at 12 000 USD and 7000 USD for the cameras. When I saw those prices, I decided to continue to learn even if that means coming back home with no photographs. Experience taught me that if I don't get the photo today, I will get it tomorrow, because animals don't come closer if I tell them I bought a D500, unfortunately it doesn't work this way, animals come or not come if they want to, usually animal motive is to find food or follow better weather conditions (migration). In the wild, animals are in free space, they respond to the law of competition between places, they select the best places according to their criteria: availability of food, ease of getting the food that they are looking for and not being disturbed by predators and human beings for example. Now, I don't even bring the Pentax K1 and DFA150450 (too heavy to carry), I bring a pair of binoculars in my backpack next to a thermos with tea or coffee, and I observe. When I figure out a place with right conditions suitable for wildlife photography with Pentax, I come back later, I bring the K1 and DFA150-450, that is when and how I make the best use of what I have. That being said, I've seen guys having the money to own a Canon 600 f4 IS and 1DxII, but since there was not wildlife around where they were, they decided to go shooting the ducks at the pond of the local castle park. I conclude that there are different ways to approach things, we do according to our budget and preferences. Personally, I like to learn and improve my approach, I know that my Pentax system is not the best of all, but compared to compacts and point and shots and mobiles phone the Pentax full frame system is already a solid piece of equipment, so why not enjoy what we already have and enjoy the process of being in nature and taking wildlife photographs.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-19-2018 at 02:45 PM.
09-19-2018, 02:45 PM - 1 Like   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Ladies and gentlemen:
Another moderator has already commented. I've edited a few recent posts to keep things friendly.
No more personal attacks please. I hate closing threads or issuing thread bans. Let's not go there please?
I feel honored for starting a thread that has required two mods to intervene already...
09-19-2018, 02:47 PM - 2 Likes   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by UserAccessDenied Quote
I feel honored for starting a thread that has required two mods to intervene already...
We've been meaning to ask you for a billing address...

09-19-2018, 03:07 PM - 1 Like   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Camera systems dedicated to wildlife cost a lot of money, very expensive, it is not uncommon to see prime lenses for sale at 12 000 USD and 7000 USD for the cameras. When I saw those prices, I decided to continue to learn even if that means coming back home with no photographs. Experience taught me that if I don't get the photo today, I will get it tomorrow, because animals don't come closer if I tell them I bought a D500, unfortunately it doesn't work this way, animals come or not come if they want to, usually animal motive is to find food or follow better weather conditions (migration). In the wild, animals are in free space, they respond to the law of competition between places, they select the best places according to their criteria: availability of food, ease of getting the food that they are looking for and not being disturbed by predators and human beings for example. Now, I don't even bring the Pentax K1 and DFA150450 (too heavy to carry), I bring a pair of binoculars in my backpack next to a thermos with tea or coffee, and I observe. When I figure out a place with right conditions suitable for wildlife photography with Pentax, I come back later, I bring the K1 and DFA150-450. That being said, I've seen guys having the money to own a Canon 600 f4 IS and 1DxII, but since there was not wildlife around where they were, they decided to go shooting the ducks at the pond of the local castle park. I conclude that there are different ways to approach things, we do according to our budget and preferences.
I'm talking about serious wildlife, not about spending money for 3-5 wildlife shootings in a year. I drive 300km to Danube Delta to photograph birds. I have a local guide there who calls me when there is activity at the birds that I'm interested in.

Experience told you that you will get the images tomorow if you can't take it today. Experience taught me other things: try and get the shot today because tomorow you may have a bad weather or the bird will not be in the same spot where you put the hide. I waited an entire day for an eagle to come at the nest without knowing that the eagle abandoned the nest. I was lucky to take a few portraits of the bird a day before, when I instaled the hide. And if I'm on a 2 days tour, I don't want to rely on tomorow.

But we are not talking about the OP's concerns and it is clear that we have different approaches. Each of them seems to work for us. The OP has to take his own decisions based on his needs. We may talk all we want about BIF and wildlife, but we are not the ones who has to vote with our wallets. As long as he has the chance to rent/borrow the Pentax 150-450mm lens and the D500 with 200-500mm, he will take the right decision based on his needs. If he relies on reviews and on forum impressions, then he may take the wrong decission.

I wish to OP good luck in taking the best decision for his needs and if he has time, maybe he can post here some images taken with whatever gear he will decide to buy.
09-19-2018, 03:18 PM   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
But we are not talking about the OP's concerns and it is clear that we have different approaches. Each of them seems to work for us. The OP has to take his own decisions based on his needs. We may talk all we want about BIF and wildlife, but we are not the ones who has to vote with our wallets. As long as he has the chance to rent/borrow the Pentax 150-450mm lens and the D500 with 200-500mm, he will take the right decision based on his needs. If he relies on reviews and on forum impressions, then he may take the wrong decission.

I wish to OP good luck in taking the best decision for his needs and if he has time, maybe he can post here some images taken with whatever gear he will decide to buy.
We may not all agree here 100% of the time (or even 80%... 50%... anyone? ), but the above is about the most realistic summary any of us could offer...
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