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09-17-2018, 07:47 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
For birding, the lens is essential. The 200-500 f5.6 is a safari lens: the kind of lens you use for photography elephant and lions from a Jeep in an African park. For bird, you need 500 f4 or 600 f4 with TC option, camera doesn't help.
True, but I don't have $6,000 for a new lens!

At least, not if I want to keep my marriage...

09-17-2018, 07:49 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by UserAccessDenied Quote
True, but I don't have $6,000 for a new lens!

At least, not if I want to keep my marriage...
Divorce adds an awful lot to the cost of lenses.

Last edited by normhead; 09-17-2018 at 08:04 AM.
09-17-2018, 07:53 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Talking to this guy, an accomplished birder who will go anywhere for shots with his Nikon D4 and 600 4, looked at my 400 5.6 and sneered "I don't shoot 5.6". Realizing what he'd done he then lightened up and tried to be a little nicer.

Just saying, you can buy a 5.6 combo, but this guy will still be sneering at you.

Bottom line if you can't spring for a a 150-450 to improve your odds, what are the odds you're going to splurge for a BiF lens? Having recently purchased my k-1 on a whim and a tax return, I can fully relate to the issue of having a great body, but not being able to afford the glass to take full advantage of it.
That looks cold!

And I could care less about the guy shooting the 600 F4 lol, he can sneer all day. I'll take the $8500 I saved by shooting F5.6 and go on an incredible trip to Europe with my wife!

I really do love what Pentax has done with the K-1ii... I'm really hoping something better, or even comparable, for APS-C comes out as I have no intentions of shooting FF.
For wildlife alone, the 1.5x crop factor is almost pinnacle.
And the crop-mode on the K-1 isn't really any improvement over the K-3ii, unfortunately.


Best case scenario?
Tax returns buys me a 150-450 and puts another $1500 aside for the K-3ii successor that would (again ideally) be announced in 8-10 days and released on my Birthday (end of December)...


Wishful thinking?!
09-17-2018, 07:54 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Divorce adds an awful lo to the cost of lens.
Divorce >= Sigma 200-500 F2.8



09-17-2018, 07:57 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by UserAccessDenied Quote
The things that concerned me with the KP vs the K-3ii:
- 7FPS and only 8 shot RAW buffer... That's a bummer... Even compared to the K-3ii at 23 shots RAW.
- Single card slot... When you've had a memory card fail after 4 hours of shooting, you'll never buy a single card slot camera ever again!
- Low battery life

I do think the KP would have an advantage in terms of AF over the K-3ii, but the single card slot alone has me bypassing the camera altogether. Along with battery life and the RAW buffer.
I mean 8 shot RAW buffer is a killer, and I often feel limited by the K-3ii 23 shot buffer.


I wouldn't mind the KP as a backup camera though. But don't think it would fit as a primary K-3ii replacement for me at least.
Now the 150-450 is a serious consideration. But I don't want to invest heavily into new glass if the K-3ii successor is still another year or two out from production.

I really wish RICOH would just announce something.
The fact that I'm tempted to completely switch systems because of the uncertainty of the new APS-C flagship is signal alone that they need to do something. I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling this way!

It doesn't even have to be a D500 killer to keep me where I'm at!
Just something moving in that direction - ideally trumping the K-1ii and KP in terms of low light performance and AF capabilities, particularly with tracking and continuous shooting.
If I were you I would try out the K1 even though you're not looking at FF. Seriously, it is not much bigger than the K3 and is miles ahead of it, especially with the 150-450. That lens will lock on pretty fast and will work with the DA 1.4 tc (of course you're stuck in crop mode with that). Then again at that focal length holding it steady is a challenge. Speaking of speed, the DFA 150-450 with the 1.4 tc is faster focusing in my experience than the DA* 60-250. With just the lens it is faster yet.
09-17-2018, 07:58 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by UserAccessDenied Quote
And I could care less about the guy shooting the 600 F4 lol, he can sneer all day. I'll take the $8500 I saved by shooting F5.6 and go on an incredible trip to Europe with my wife!
I used to think that too but look at the date on that photo and I still remember that guy, he obviously made an impression.

The thing about ƒ4, is in demanding AF situations, ƒ4 gives the AF system twice the light to work with. It's not a snob thing about the money, it's functional thing about the odds fo success.

That's why the guy changed his tone. I think he realized how snobby that sounded, and that wasn't his intent. It was all about chance of success.

And the point here is, you don't get the benefit of a better AF system on something like a D500, if you don't buy the lenses that will take advantage of it. IN fact it would be interesting to see a comparison of a D500 with say a 150-600 and Pentax with a 600 ƒ4. People assume there would be an advantage to the Nikon system, but, when the Pentax is the expensive system and the Nikon is the bargain basement system, that's probably not the case.

The only question is "What do I have to pay to get the performance I'd like." You have to count the cost of the whole system, not just the body. If you don't buy the fast glass, how de we know you're gaining anything at all changing systems? I personally gave the a D500 good look when it came out, analyzed what I'd have to buy to get an increase in performance, and stayed with my K-3.

But maybe you have a lot more money to spend than I do.

Last edited by normhead; 09-17-2018 at 08:10 AM.
09-17-2018, 08:04 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Just saying, you can buy a 5.6 combo, but this guy will still be sneering at you.
My point is, if you want to save money, you stay with Pentax and you improve on the weak part of your system. If you switch all over to another brand, why not get the significantly better system. For me, switching from Pentax K3 + DFA150450 to a D500 with 200-500 isn't a noticeable step forward, simply because the Nikon 200-500 f5.6 is an entry level tele zoom made in China for being priced less than $1500 or so. Lets forget about brand names: take cars, switching from Pentax amateur gear to Nikon amateur gear is like switching brands of car to get the same engine, same volume and same gear box... for the money the difference isn't going to be noticeable. Back to cameras, I have a DFA150-450, it's good , but it's not like a 600 f4, I wouldn't spend the money to get a D500 and put back a 200-500 f5.6 on it...
09-17-2018, 08:09 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by UserAccessDenied Quote
So many questions.
So many feels.

Where's my support group?!
My main advice to you is to be sure of your facts. Pentaxians seem to think that the D500 is a wonderful camera - it is good, but not as good as we think it is. Like many Nikon cameras, the AF is great by Pentax standards .... and if AF is all that you need, that is what you need to think about. However, in conversing with Nikon users I have come to understand that it is not nearly as good at higher ISO values as we seem to think it is - it has both color fidelity and noise issues {which could be why they think in terms of "constant f/4 lenses"}. If I were you, I would wait until the K-3 replacement comes out and consider that camera + the 55-300 PLM {or better} lens.


Pentax KP First Shots: Going head-to-head against the Nikon D500 at ISO 819,200!

09-17-2018, 08:10 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by UserAccessDenied Quote
Are you saying the K-1ii is better autofocus than the D500 or the K-3ii?
Is this from experience? The AF in the D500 is the same as the D5, so if the K-1ii is better than the D500 in terms of AF, wouldn't that assume it's better than the D5 also?
That's a bold statement.
It is better than the K3II and the K1. The D500 is very good.

This with the 150-450.

I agree with reh321. The D500 is a very capable body, but not magical. My friends have spent half an hour sorting out some configuration detail. I think it is better in low light than the K3, not sure. The fast refresh rate is nice in some circumstances. But the K3 is very capable as well. I'm very serious when I say that I get shots they don't. They get shots I don't. Most of it is technique.

I'd seriously look at the K1 MII. At cropped rate you get almost the refresh rate of the K3 and in both modes there is no slowdown in AFC holding the button down. Low light capabilities will transform your shooting, and get you far more shots you couldn't get than a bit better AF.

This is with the K1 Mark II. A prairie falcon, it flew directly at me. I managed to get three shots, one was in focus, the others were out of focus because it was flying overhead and I couldn't keep it in the focus points. A fast bird. I wouldn't have gotten this shot with my K3, and wouldn't have even bothered with the K1. The first one is substantially cropped.




Last edited by derekkite; 09-17-2018 at 08:52 AM.
09-17-2018, 08:15 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
The D500 is very good.
Well, I've been in a blind with my K1 and both 70-200 f2.8 and 150-450, seen images taken by photographer next to me with the D500 and 200-500 f5.6, given all the good I've heard from the D500 I was shocked by its images... I preferred the IQ I got from the K1.


The Nikon 200-500 give 50mm advantage over the DFA150-450. I'd get a Sigma 150-600 Sport F mount and the D500. Or even better, get a D500 with the new Nikkor 500 f5.6 PF prime small and light weight it is ideal for BIFs,


---------- Post added 17-09-18 at 17:24 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by UserAccessDenied Quote
True, but I don't have $6,000 for a new lens!
Good wildlife photography costs either a lot of time or a lot of money or (and) both

Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-17-2018 at 08:25 AM.
09-17-2018, 09:00 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I was shocked by its images... I preferred the IQ I got from the K1.
Indeed. I'm taking shots at dusk and dawn, and in good light the K1 is amazing. As I said, the AF in Mark II is substantially better. I have no reason to look at anything else.
09-17-2018, 09:01 AM   #27
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I am in a similar situation. Now, and many times before. Every time I ask myself this question 'How many times I do BIF? How many times I enter photo competition or going to sell my pics?'. Then I stop worrying about AF and stuff I am still with Pentax. Firmly. Just got a 560mm which means I can't find a buyer in India even if I want to sell

PS: sorry for the bad English.

From what I heard, D7x00 is a better value for money than D500. Price to performance, I mean.
09-17-2018, 09:23 AM   #28
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BIF is a challenging photography genre. Many of the photos on PF show it can be done with moderate gear but ideally more reach and more aperture are helpful. Someone who can get good photos of small birds with a 300/4 lens can likely get even better photos with a 500/4 lens. Is the improvement worth $6000 or more, though?

I don't know much about the Nikon 200-500 f5.6. Given the $1400 price I suspect that some compromises were made in sharpness and/or focus speed compared to top end wildlife lenses. That's just a guess. Look for reviews and maybe rent a D500 + 200-500 before committing. Also consider the Sigma and Tamron 150-600 lenses.

Maybe try a used Sigma 50-500 OS HSM for your K-3? I've seen them sell around $1000. Aperture is f6.3 at the long end so not great, but the next significant step up in Pentax-land is something like the Pentax 560/5.6 or Sigma 500/4.5.

P.S. I'm considering a similar decision as you. I don't currently get out for enough wildlife photography to justify spending thousands; that situation might change within the next year and I'll have more time to travel and photograph. Pentax mount version of Sigma 500/4.5? Maybe switch to Sony A7riii for AF and burst speed, then pick from the greater variety of lenses on the "other side"?
09-17-2018, 09:26 AM   #29
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If you have not utilized a super telephoto lens like the Pentax 150-450 while doing wildlife/bird shooting than you may not have an idea of the true capabilities of using a super telephoto along with a K-3 II. I have done a lot of successful birding with my K-3 II/Sigma 150-500 DG OS combination, along with sports (soccer) and it has done a wonderful job. The settings and techniques I used were vital to what the outcome was, but the K-3 II AF performed effectively. In other words, if I am tracking something reasonably well, then the results will be successful.

Below is a shortcut to a shot I took of a seagull with my K-3 II/Sigma 150-500 DG OS.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/gallery/photo-imgp1315_seagull_c_jones-jpg-49654/&u=52508

If I were you I would be looking at a Pentax 150-450.

Good luck.
09-17-2018, 09:31 AM   #30
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Can you show us an example of a "keeper" and a "non keeper." Full size image uncropped and before being edited would help me see what you are going for. Rent the Nikon combo you are thinking about before making such an expensive change and see if it will do the job. Also rent the Pentax 150-400. I've never used the D500 but on paper it doesn't seem much more different than the K3. Looks like the D500 has a little less megapixels for cropping, and only marginally better iso performance.
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