[Chris Mak]

I guess it depends what it's packing...
The KP isn't an APS-C flagship and is dated now. The K-1 is dated also and the mark ii version had marginal improvements so no real cause for a jump in price.

If they released a K-3iii, or whatever it's going to be called, that rivaled the D500 in AF performance, fps and buffer speed... Along with other improvements... I would have no reservations paying upwards of $2200 for it brand new. Today.

If you guessed my decision was made to wait, than you were correct! There's too much happening next week to pull the trigger on something right now.

I've put an offer on a 150-450 on the marketplace, waiting to hear back from the seller.
If I can pick that up for less than a D500 body I'll give it a shot. If not, I'm going to wait to see what happens at Photokina.

The Sony "mini a9" is also intriguing, if it's not just a rumor.

These are exciting times for photographers; regardless of brand loyalty!

One more birder here, that is contemplating what best to do regarding future birding.
I have the DA560 and used it on the K3 for years. AF unreliability had me switching to a KP. The good news is, that the KP was much more reliable regarding S-AF consistency.
I could not get myself to like the IQ of the KP for birding though (it will be a super allround camera), and switched to a K3II, only to find myself wrestling with the same inconsistent AF behavior again (opportunities lost due to inability to quickly and accurately lock on a target: needing some shutterbutton pampering to find pinpoint accurate focus). Using the KP showed me that it was not the DA560, but the AF module/programming in the K3(II).

So the ability to get very reliable S-AF is there with Pentax. I don't intend to use the DA560 for tracking anyhow. The K3II successor though, is a project in the clouds, and my gut feeling is: don't wait for it, either accept shooting the K3II for the coming years, or look at other options. I know it agonizes other people on this forum, but my gut feeling remains the same: Pentax is completely involved with FF, and off the record, I have a strong hunch that the KP is good enough for APSC in their view anyhow, so no hurry on their part. They also have limited resources to reckon with.

But back to the point
Now the options I came up with:

-Nikon D500 + Sigma 500/4. Alternatively Nikon D500 + Nikkor 500mm f5.6 PF

-Sony Super High end APSC (mini A9), to be announced in oktober, + the fabulous 100-400 f4.5-5.6 and both terrific Sony converters. A Sony 200-600mm is in the works.

-Canon EosR + the DO400 f4 and both stellar Canon converters

Those are all costly options, but are also all a solid upgrade

Chris

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Last edited by Chris Mak; 09-20-2018 at 01:08 PM.

[UncleVanya]

One more birder here, that is contemplating what best to do regarding future birding.
I have the DA560 and used it on the K3 for years. AF unreliability had me switching to a KP. The good news is, that the KP was much more reliable regarding S-AF consistency.
I could not get myself to like the IQ of the KP for birding though (it will be a super allround camera), and switched to a K3II, only to find myself wrestling with the same inconsistent AF behavior again (opportunities lost due to inability to quickly and accurately lock on a target: needing some shutterbutton pampering to find pinpoint accurate focus). Using the KP showed me that it was not the DA560, but the AF module/programming in the K3(II).

So the ability to get very reliable S-AF is there with Pentax. I don't intend to use the DA560 for tracking anyhow. The K3II successor though, is a project in the clouds, and my gut feeling is: don't wait for it, either accept shooting the K3II for the coming years, or look at other options. I know it agonizes other people on this forum, but my gut feeling remains the same: Pentax is completely involved with FF, and off the record, I have a strong hunch that the KP is good enough for APSC in their view anyhow, so no hurry on their part. They also have limited resources to reckon with.

But back to the point
Now the options I came up with:

-Nikon D500 + Sigma 500/4. Alternatively Nikon D500 + Nikkor 500mm f5.6 PF

-Sony Super High end APSC (mini A9), to be announced in oktober, + the fabulous 100-400 f4.5-5.6 and both terrific Sony converters. A Sony 200-600mm is in the works.

-Canon EosR + the DO400 f4 and both stellar Canon converters

Those are all costly options, but are also all a solid upgrade

Chris

Chris - one thing that seems clear to me is that the lens on the Pentax side also matters. The HD DA 55-300 PLM RE is so dramatically faster than other lenses that I wonder if something like an updated 560 is needed as well as perhaps a new body to get the level of performance you are looking for. I know that doesn't change your options today but it is something I wonder about. It is not easy to know how much each factors in (Lens/Camera) to the equation. Where lies the limits isn't entirely clear. What is clear is that many of us are far from needing the extreme performance that some people seem to want. At times I wonder how much my photographic choices are informed by my equipment and how much might be different if I had different equipment. I think (but don't know how to be certain) that my choices are more about what I like and enjoy - I hate the idea of a blind and sitting around watching birds for example - but how does one know for sure that gear doesn't drive some of this enjoyment?

[Rondec]

We're both conjecturing, but that rumored sensor isn't needed for a spec upgrade. Sony has been selling a 24mp 19fps sensor for 2 years.

Couple that sesnor with improved AF tracking, fast buffer able to handle newer card speeds, large buffer, and an upgraded mirror/shutter assembly. 19fps from a reasonably priced (sub $1500) DSLR is unrealistic because of the physical mirror. Aim for 10fps, maybe add a gimmick to take 2 images via electronic shutter for each flap of the mirror to use the full 19fps.


8fps from the K-3ii is already pretty good, but since that camera is discontinued they have to make some type of improvement to justify a new body. AF and speed seem like the natural places to go with APS-C. I suppose they could stick with 8 fps but make a big improvement in noise handling.

I think the big thing would be a new engine instead of the ancient PRIME one that Pentax currently uses. Beyond which the rumor included Samsung undercutting Sony's price by 30 percent. Those two features would be enough to probably swing things in Samsung's direction if the rumor is actually accurate.

[Chris Mak]

Chris - one thing that seems clear to me is that the lens on the Pentax side also matters. The HD DA 55-300 PLM RE is so dramatically faster than other lenses that I wonder if something like an updated 560 is needed as well as perhaps a new body to get the level of performance you are looking for. I know that doesn't change your options today but it is something I wonder about. It is not easy to know how much each factors in (Lens/Camera) to the equation. Where lies the limits isn't entirely clear. What is clear is that many of us are far from needing the extreme performance that some people seem to want. At times I wonder how much my photographic choices are informed by my equipment and how much might be different if I had different equipment. I think (but don't know how to be certain) that my choices are more about what I like and enjoy - I hate the idea of a blind and sitting around watching birds for example - but how does one know for sure that gear doesn't drive some of this enjoyment?

I did get the S-AF reliability with the KP + DA560 combo though. I am not really looking for tracking AF, I know that the DA 560's lens motor is not able to track. It should be able to quickly and securely lock onto a target though, and not need 5 sec. of shutterbutton pampering to get the right focus. After 3 years of K3 + DA560, I have come to know the AF behavior through and through, and sure enough, after switching back from the KP to the K3II, the exact same behavior was there again.

Many one time shots, where I only had time to aim, focus and shoot in 1-2 sec. were blurred by just missed AF, and that just isn't what you want from such a wonderfully sharp lens as the DA560.

Apart from not fully enjoying shooting the K3II + DA560 combo anymore because of knowing it will let me down when an opportunity comes along and I only get one chance, there are other reasons for lookig around for alternatives. For me, it is the same as you say: birding is not about sitting somewhere in a hide with your camera/lens on a tripod. Birding is about being out in nature, walking and enjoying being part of nature and on the move. And the weight of the DA560+K3 was always júst ok. But now with (much) lighter equipment being developed, like the Nikon 500mm f5.6 PF (half the weight of the DA560!!), or the Sony mirrorless options, or the Canon DO400 f4 + extenders....
So photography is, or should never be about brand loyalty. It is always good to consider other options.

Chris

[BigMackCam]

I did get the S-AF reliability with the KP + DA560 combo though. I am not really looking for tracking AF, I know that the DA 560's lens motor is not able to track. It should be able to quickly and securely lock onto a target though, and not need 5 sec. of shutterbutton pampering to get the right focus.

Chris, I've always found your situation very interesting - perhaps because you're one of the few DA560 owners / users on these forums.

Can I ask, re the long AF cycle with the DA560... Is it like a more pronounced equivalent of the racking back-and-forth that can happen with the DA55-300? If so, have you tried manually presetting the focusing distance to infinity for distant subjects, or MFD for short-range, before pressing the shutter button for AF?

My apologies if this seems like I'm stating the obvious, but I thought I'd mention it on the very small off-chance that you may not have tried this approach. No small number of DA55-300 owners run into the AF back-and-forth problem I mentioned, and so did I when I first got my own copy. But the method I've described has reduced my initial AF cycle dramatically in most situations. I realise it's not a proper solution, but it's a work-around that has improved my experience with the DA55-300 considerably

[Chris Mak]

Chris, I've always found your situation very interesting - perhaps because you're one of the few DA560 owners / users on these forums.

Can I ask, re the long AF cycle with the DA560... Is it like a more pronounced equivalent of the racking back-and-forth that can happen with the DA55-300? If so, have you tried manually presetting the focusing distance to infinity for distant subjects, or MFD for short-range, before pressing the shutter button for AF?

My apologies if this seems like I'm stating the obvious, but I thought I'd mention it on the very small off-chance that you may not have tried this approach. No small number of DA55-300 owners run into the AF back-and-forth problem I mentioned, and so did I when I first got my own copy. But the method I've described has reduced my initial AF cycle dramatically in most situations. I realise it's not a proper solution, but it's a work-around that has improved my experience with the DA55-300 considerably

I would not know about the DA55-300, but no, the DA560 does not rack back and forth. It has the very smooth focussing of its DC motor.
In good light it actually focusses very good, but you need some time to get the right focus, because the K3 series cameras are not secure in first focus attempt, at least with the DA560. Eventually, that loses you too many special shots. If you take the time to sit somewhere and have a willing subject, than it gets some very nice shots.

Having tried the KP, I would say that it is mostly due to the algorithms and /or processor of the K3.

Anyhow, it's a balance. You can find many very good images taken by others with the K3II + DA560 on this forum. But I have also lost a lot of shots due to inability of this combo to quickly and accurately do a first focus. The limitations start to show. Perhaps a K3III could take this lens one level up, but as I said, many other options are emerging regarding mirrorless AF progress and lighter lenses, and truth be told, the K3III is not Pentax' priority....

Chris

[UserAccessDenied]

I did get the S-AF reliability with the KP + DA560 combo though. I am not really looking for tracking AF, I know that the DA 560's lens motor is not able to track. It should be able to quickly and securely lock onto a target though, and not need 5 sec. of shutterbutton pampering to get the right focus. After 3 years of K3 + DA560, I have come to know the AF behavior through and through, and sure enough, after switching back from the KP to the K3II, the exact same behavior was there again.

Many one time shots, where I only had time to aim, focus and shoot in 1-2 sec. were blurred by just missed AF, and that just isn't what you want from such a wonderfully sharp lens as the DA560.

Apart from not fully enjoying shooting the K3II + DA560 combo anymore because of knowing it will let me down when an opportunity comes along and I only get one chance, there are other reasons for lookig around for alternatives. For me, it is the same as you say: birding is not about sitting somewhere in a hide with your camera/lens on a tripod. Birding is about being out in nature, walking and enjoying being part of nature and on the move. And the weight of the DA560+K3 was always júst ok. But now with (much) lighter equipment being developed, like the Nikon 500mm f5.6 PF (half the weight of the DA560!!), or the Sony mirrorless options, or the Canon DO400 f4 + extenders....
So photography is, or should never be about brand loyalty. It is always good to consider other options.

Chris

This...

I hate sitting in a blind, waiting for a subject to come in frame. That's so lame in my opinion. I've only done it once and will likely not do it again under normal circumstances.

I'd rather be out in the sticks and the mud finding opportunities. Sure my photos won't be a great and clear as the birding-blind guys, but I'm doing this for the entire experience.

If I just wanted clear, crisp staged photos I'd go to the zoo... The blind isn't much different in my opinion.


Noted on the 500mm f5.6 PF. That lens looks like a beauty. Expensive, but likely to drop in price with time.

[BigMackCam]

I would not know about the DA55-300, but no, the DA560 does not rack back and forth. It has the very smooth focussing of its DC motor.
In good light it actually focusses very good, but you need some time to get the right focus, because the K3 series cameras are not secure in first focus attempt, at least with the DA560. Eventually, that loses you too many special shots. If you take the time to sit somewhere and have a willing subject, than it gets some very nice shots.

Having tried the KP, I would say that it is mostly due to the algorithms and /or processor of the K3.

Thanks, Chris. So it's not related to what I mentioned. Not to worry... I thought it might be worth throwing it out there

truth be told, the K3III is not Pentax' priority...

Without inside information, I don't think any of us can say what Ricoh Imaging's priorities are with any certainty. It's all conjecture at this stage. One thing we can be reasonably sure of, given the last interview at CP+... the K-3II replacement is more of a priority now than it has ever been

[normhead]

If the aren't working on a K-3 replacement, they have to be working on something.

Given the price reductions lately for K-70 and K-P, you have to wonder, exactly what are the production lines making?
Is their whole production capacity taken up by K-1iis?

[BigMackCam]

If the aren't working on a K-3 replacement, they have to be working on something.

Given the price reductions lately for K-70 and K-P, you have to wonder, exactly what are the production lines making?
Is their whole production capacity taken up by K-1iis?

Who knows? But I find it difficult to believe that, with the K-3II discontinued and the interview at CP+, that the K-3II replacement isn't at least part of story...

[UserAccessDenied]

I was just out shooting with my K-3ii + 1.4xTC and DA*300 and missed over half my BIF shots. That's being generous... Probably missed closer to 80% of the shots.

Granted, I was trying to focus track gull-billed terns and they are very fast moving birds! Still, disappointed by the number of missed shots. It's like you said, the K-3 misses the initial first focus a lot of the time. I found I would have to manual focus to get the bird's track almost in focus then quickly snap the AF button (I've found back button AF works better for me, never really been a fan of the shutter button focusing...) Even then, the camera would sometimes focus right past the bird and hit infinity then rack back to MFD.

These are white birds and they were flying against a green background of dense trees. Plenty of contrast for focusing.

I shot about 300 frames with AF-s, using back button on focus between each shot and center AF point.
Another 150 frames with AF-s, back button focus between shots and center AF point, with 9 point expansion.
Then switched to AF-c and shot another 300 frames holding AF during shooting and center AF point, with 25 point expansion.
Lastly, another 300 frames in AF-c with AF button and center AF point, with 9 point expansion.

I also noticed that on AF-c it helped to re-engage the AF button every 2 or 3 seconds, though in my opinion that's what Hold AF Status - 4 is for, right? (Menu C3 #18)


It's definitely fun chasing these little birds with a telephoto!
I'm not expecting every shot to be in focus. But there were times when I was dead center focus point on a distinctly white bird against a deep dark green background and the lens would just refuse to nail the bird in focus.
I even stopped worrying about hitting the shutter for a bit and just tracked the bird with AF button and it just wouldn't focus.

NOT saying the D500 would be able to do this.. I honestly have no idea.. But I think there has to be improvement somewhere.
These are the moments I should be really enjoying. I walked out and spotted a group of these terns diving and feeding in shallow waters; sun setting, golden light, no one around.
It's incredible, but then the moment is filled with frustration as I'm fiddling with my camera trying to just get the damn bird in focus...

Anyways, I'm off to dinner. I can post some photos later if that helps, though not sure how significant out of focus photos will be.

[photoptimist]

I'm not expecting every shot to be in focus. But there were times when I was dead center focus point on a distinctly white bird against a deep dark green background and the lens would just refuse to nail the bird in focus.

If the bird is large enough relative to the focus point, it's possible that all the AF system saw was a low-contrast white object. The AF system may do better if the focus point in on the boundary of the a high-contrast feature.

[derekkite]

I was just out shooting with my K-3ii + 1.4xTC and DA*300 and missed over half my BIF shots. That's being generous... Probably missed closer to 80% of the shots.

Granted, I was trying to focus track gull-billed terns and they are very fast moving birds! Still, disappointed by the number of missed shots. It's like you said, the K-3 misses the initial first focus a lot of the time. I found I would have to manual focus to get the bird's track almost in focus then quickly snap the AF button (I've found back button AF works better for me, never really been a fan of the shutter button focusing...) Even then, the camera would sometimes focus right past the bird and hit infinity then rack back to MFD.

These are white birds and they were flying against a green background of dense trees. Plenty of contrast for focusing.

I shot about 300 frames with AF-s, using back button on focus between each shot and center AF point.
Another 150 frames with AF-s, back button focus between shots and center AF point, with 9 point expansion.
Then switched to AF-c and shot another 300 frames holding AF during shooting and center AF point, with 25 point expansion.
Lastly, another 300 frames in AF-c with AF button and center AF point, with 9 point expansion.

I also noticed that on AF-c it helped to re-engage the AF button every 2 or 3 seconds, though in my opinion that's what Hold AF Status - 4 is for, right? (Menu C3 #18)


It's definitely fun chasing these little birds with a telephoto!
I'm not expecting every shot to be in focus. But there were times when I was dead center focus point on a distinctly white bird against a deep dark green background and the lens would just refuse to nail the bird in focus.
I even stopped worrying about hitting the shutter for a bit and just tracked the bird with AF button and it just wouldn't focus.

NOT saying the D500 would be able to do this.. I honestly have no idea.. But I think there has to be improvement somewhere.
These are the moments I should be really enjoying. I walked out and spotted a group of these terns diving and feeding in shallow waters; sun setting, golden light, no one around.
It's incredible, but then the moment is filled with frustration as I'm fiddling with my camera trying to just get the damn bird in focus...

Anyways, I'm off to dinner. I can post some photos later if that helps, though not sure how significant out of focus photos will be.

Yup, pretty well matches my experience as well. Very frustrating. Good luck finding something that works. TC's swallow light, i didn't get good results from that combination with either.

[reh321]

This...

I hate sitting in a blind, waiting for a subject to come in frame. That's so lame in my opinion. I've only done it once and will likely not do it again under normal circumstances.

I'd rather be out in the sticks and the mud finding opportunities. Sure my photos won't be a great and clear as the birding-blind guys, but I'm doing this for the entire experience.

I also take most of my photos in the context of an experience - nature walks with my wife {who is a birder}. 'Blind' and 'tripod' are two words that don't fit in my experience .... but others have different experience and expectations.

[Theov39]

Thanks again for everyone chiming in here... Much more activity than I had initially expected from this thread.

Just want to add a note.
Seems a common theme here is commenting on, "if OP wants to drop money on Nikon body". But in reality I (the OP) will likely be dropping the same amount on a new K-3ii successor, right?

Don't we expect the K-3ii successor to be in the $1600-$1800 range?
I mean it's all in theory anyways since nothing has been announced yet, but there WILL be a cost associated with it. So regardless there's money to be dropped somewhere.

Also, the D500 can be found around $1200-$1300 used right now.
That's a pretty good deal in my opinion.

I'm trying to find a DFA 150-450 in that same price range and it's difficult to say the least.

The D500 definitely looks like a very nice camera. I don't think you could go wrong with that choice for your intended purpose. I shoot both Pentax (K3 mostly) and Nikon (FF D700) and both are great cameras in their own way. Even discounting the fanboy factor, I have yet to see a negative review of the D500.