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10-16-2018, 08:32 AM   #16
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"In 2018, Sigma is a company in flux. Since the launch of the Global Vision lineup in 2012, Sigma has gone from focusing primarily on just two DSLR lens mounts (plus lower-volume production of Some Sony A, Pentax PK and Sigma SA-compatible lenses) to soon supporting eight, excluding PK but including the L-mount, which will effectively replace the older SA mount in Sigma's own forthcoming full-frame camera lineup."

10-16-2018, 10:27 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Outside of support for lenses they already offer in K, I think they're already dropped from Sigma a couple of years ago. Now they being in a big alliance for another mount just seals it imo. Same article, the Sigma rep also states SA mount is still going to be supported (at least in the near term) with new lenses. So I don't see any room for new K.


I think KAF4 came too late. A year or two sooner and we might have seen a bit more traction from them.. though I am still kind of surprised there aren't more 'holes' being filled by 3rd parties with the FF lineup. 24-105 f/4, 70-200 f/4, newer 70-300 and/or 100-400, f/1.8 primes, wide angle primes.. etc.. there are a lot of openings for 3rd parties to enter. Sales must be super slow compared to other manufacturers for them to balk at the thought..
What the interview makes clear is that for the third-party lens companies, new mirrorless mounts offer a fantastic sales opportunity. Many new lenses will be needed, more than the big brands can provide in the short term. It's not surprising that they would want to put their efforts into that, and not into servicing legacy mounts where there is little real action beyond selling from stock. Canon and Nikon will likely dial down their involvement in their DSLR mounts at the same time. And behind the scenes, Tamron and maybe even Sigma could already be making some lenses on contract for the big brands. It says Sony Zeiss on the barrel but actually the contract went to Tamron, etc.

That said, where there is a briefcase full of money there is a way in this game, so if Ricoh really wanted, I am sure they could probably persuade Tamron or Sigma to fill any gaps. It would cost, but then some of that might come back from better sales across a now fuller system. I fear the takeaway is that the world has simply moved on and we are into a new era now. In fact, with a 20mm, 35mm, 85mm and 70-200mm f4, Pentax would have a quite well-cooked FF system albeit a high-end one. There would be gaps but they would either be dual tier ones (e.g. 16-35mm f4-5.6 rather than f2.8) or they would be long telephoto ones like 500mm f5.6 where the huge costs likely rule out Pentax involvement.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-16-2018 at 10:49 AM.
10-16-2018, 05:48 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
That said, where there is a briefcase full of money there is a way in this game, so if Ricoh really wanted, I am sure they could probably persuade Tamron or Sigma to fill any gaps. It would cost, but then some of that might come back from better sales across a now fuller system. I fear the takeaway is that the world has simply moved on and we are into a new era now. In fact, with a 20mm, 35mm, 85mm and 70-200mm f4, Pentax would have a quite well-cooked FF system albeit a high-end one. There would be gaps but they would either be dual tier ones (e.g. 16-35mm f4-5.6 rather than f2.8) or they would be long telephoto ones like 500mm f5.6 where the huge costs likely rule out Pentax involvement.
Ricoh doesn't appear to have briefcases of money for 3rd parties. Actually, they'd prefer to design and retail lenses themselves and license them to 3rd parties. Case in point: the Tokina 50 f/1.4


So I am not expecting Ricoh to fill the gaps with 3rd party, rather my desire all along is for 3rd parties to simply be interested in selling to K mount customers without Ricoh involvement. But, as I said, I think they were a year or two too late (with KAF4) as the market shrank and is now turning another direction (mirrorless).
10-16-2018, 10:06 PM   #19
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I like the guy in charge of Sigma - he gives honest answers instead of a politician's response.

I would have liked him to be asked if and when they are going to extend their support of the K mount, but that's a question that I would never expect to be asked by DPR.

10-17-2018, 01:32 AM   #20
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QuoteQuote:
Are you in communication with Canon and Nikon around their new mounts?
Around the new systems? No, not at all. We have a great interest in the two new systems but right now I have no plans.
So they wont offer any lenses in these mirrorless mounts for the time being. Just like for PK they probably want to see healthy marketshare before they invest.

QuoteQuote:
What is your opinion of Canon and Nikonís new lenses for the RF and Z mounts?
Iíve been very impressed by Canonís new lenses for RF.
Not even mentioning any Nikon lens is a clear sign he is quite underwhelmed with what Nikon roadmapped. He is not alone.
10-17-2018, 03:18 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
So they wont offer any lenses in these mirrorless mounts for the time being. Just like for PK they probably want to see healthy marketshare before they invest.



Not even mentioning any Nikon lens is a clear sign he is quite underwhelmed with what Nikon roadmapped. He is not alone.
It would seem unlikely that Sigma would do much with the new lens mounts. For one thing, they are in the process of launching a different, competing mount. The other thing is that the majority of their lenses are designed for cameras with longer registration distances. While it is relatively easy to port those over to a mirrorless mount, basically by building an adapter into the lens mount, the lens will end up being a lot bigger than it would need to be if specifically designed for that shorter registration distance. Of course, Sigma has never been focused on small lenses anyway, but it still seems as though when they release mirrorless lenses they will be designed specifically for their mount.

As far as the market share thing goes, Sigma has supported their own mount for ages when sales of those lenses have to have been miniscule, even compared to K mount sales.
10-17-2018, 04:59 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
That said, where there is a briefcase full of money there is a way in this game, so if Ricoh really wanted, I am sure they could probably persuade Tamron or Sigma to fill any gaps.
This idea reappear from time to time. People saw too many Mafia movies
There's no logic in paying a competitor in order to help them sell their products, in other words, you'd be paying them so they'd compete against you.

What works is what Ricoh actually did with Tamron, and what they're doing with Tokina.

10-17-2018, 05:13 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
This idea reappear from time to time. People saw too many Mafia movies
There's no logic in paying a competitor in order to help them sell their products, in other words, you'd be paying them so they'd compete against you.

What works is what Ricoh actually did with Tamron, and what they're doing with Tokina.
I disagree. Every time a big brand contracts out making a lens or something else to a third-party they are doing roughly the same thing anyway. There are some things an outfit can do in-house and some things they can't so one goes out of house. A couple of long teles and a couple of wide primes from elsewhere would have made a big difference to the overall line-up over the past few years, imho. A stronger line-up would sell better, I think.

As it is, the absence of something like a Tamron/Sigma 150-600mm simply forces people after birds/wildlife to leave the brand. In the case of FF, the absence of a quality modern prime in the region of 20-35mm makes potential customers less likely to sign up in the first place. Both are significant gaps, currently unfilled. In the end this has all been a distinct minus to the brand's overall offer, I think, and I doubt that making a 50mm f1.4 and selling it to Tokina (who promptly offer it in rival mounts at a lower sticker price) has made up even a fraction of the difference.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-17-2018 at 07:19 AM.
10-17-2018, 07:34 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I disagree.
Of course you do

No, cooperating is not the same as sending suitcases full of money to the 3rd-party lens makers. Not even close.
When a company subcontracts another to do a certain product for them, that's a mutually beneficial relation. Ricoh Imaging did the same by asking Tamron to make K-mount versions of some lenses, which would then be sold by Ricoh Imaging. So Ricoh Imaging gets the money on selling the lenses, and Tamron gets money for making them (from Ricoh).

When a company bribes another so that other company would make and sell certain products... the flow of money goes into one direction: that of the 3rd-party maker.
I doubt it could possibly work: how large of a bribe to convince a company which doesn't want to make those products, to make them, mass produce, distribute, offer support?
And I highly doubt such bribes are even legal.

You're also wrong about the significance of making the first truly high-end prime in a while - the D FA* 50mm f/1.4. Excellent optics - don't take my word, read the just published review, solid mechanics, advancements like the KAF4 and ring-type SDM: this lens is a big step forward for the K-mount, and we should all celebrate. Except maybe ex-Pentaxians, especially now-Olympus users
That a version of it is also offered by Tokina is just a small detail.
10-17-2018, 08:40 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
"In 2018, Sigma is a company in flux. Since the launch of the Global Vision lineup in 2012, Sigma has gone from focusing primarily on just two DSLR lens mounts (plus lower-volume production of Some Sony A, Pentax PK and Sigma SA-compatible lenses) to soon supporting eight, excluding PK but including the L-mount, which will effectively replace the older SA mount in Sigma's own forthcoming full-frame camera lineup."
I contacted Sigma and they told me otherwise.

I will investigate this further.

I did notice he did not directly quote from the transcript.
10-17-2018, 11:05 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
"In 2018, Sigma is a company in flux. Since the launch of the Global Vision lineup in 2012, Sigma has gone from focusing primarily on just two DSLR lens mounts (plus lower-volume production of Some Sony A, Pentax PK and Sigma SA-compatible lenses) to soon supporting eight, excluding PK but including the L-mount, which will effectively replace the older SA mount in Sigma's own forthcoming full-frame camera lineup."
Here is the official word from Sigma:


Thank you for contacting Sigma USA. There has been no news of current lenses being discontinued in Pentax mount (unless the lens it’s self is discontinued), but we have not offered any new selections in Pentax mount in a few years, and I doubt we will see any additional models.”

The author of the article at DPR confirmed this is consistent with what he has heard from Sigma.

And this makes perfect sense.

In this contracted market they aren’t selling the number of lenses that they used to. So recovering the initial investment for a new K-Mount lens is difficult. But if they already have the lens in the lineup they keep making a batch of them as supplies are depleted.

Is the DPR author’s commentary on the issue of Pentax support well done, I would say no.
10-17-2018, 01:07 PM - 1 Like   #27
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The idea that Ricoh would show up on a 3rd party lens manufacturer's doorstep and offer them money to hang a k-mount on the backside of a lens not otherwise available in k-mount, in full 3rd-party branding and such (meaning, a Tamron lens that says Tamron on it, fully a Tamron solution and not the hybrid of Pentax + Tamron like the 15-30) is silly. What I see happening is what was already mentioned; Pentax tweaks on an existing lens like 15-30 situation, or a combined effort like the Tokina Opera 50.
10-17-2018, 04:19 PM - 1 Like   #28
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Canon, Nikon and Sony hate the third party lens manufacturers. They are commercial rivals, no question about it, and they don't share protocols. They put the effort into developing a body, and don't want it simply milked by others. It is the weaker companies struggling against them who collaborate with each other to try to share costs (Panasonic, Olympus, Sigma, Leica, Pentax, Tokina).

An 'ecosystem' is what we owners want, not the camera companies.
10-18-2018, 07:45 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Canon, Nikon and Sony hate the third party lens manufacturers. They are commercial rivals, no question about it, and they don't share protocols. They put the effort into developing a body, and don't want it simply milked by others. It is the weaker companies struggling against them who collaborate with each other to try to share costs (Panasonic, Olympus, Sigma, Leica, Pentax, Tokina).

An 'ecosystem' is what we owners want, not the camera companies.
That's funny considering Canon, Nikon, & Sony all buy lenses from Tamron, Sigma, & Tokina. Sony is the second largest share holder in Tamron. Tokina, Tamron, & Sigma are all OEM for Canon, Nikon, & Sony. Most of Tamron's business is OEM.
10-18-2018, 07:58 AM - 1 Like   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
That's funny considering Canon, Nikon, & Sony all buy lenses from Tamron, Sigma, & Tokina. Sony is the second largest share holder in Tamron. Tokina, Tamron, & Sigma are all OEM for Canon, Nikon, & Sony. Most of Tamron's business is OEM.
Yes, there is far more intercompany business behind the scenes than we allow. The brands are often just the outward-facing manifestation of it, the sales frontage in a way. It makes a lot of the amour propre about own-brand lenses and can't touch a lens from X they are a competitor, etc, rather ridiculous, imho. One of the very best lenses in the Olympus stable is a Sigma design, apparently. And Mr. Jun Hirakawa of old Pentax fame is now with Tamron, of course. At this level of expertise, it is a very small world. With the help of modern CAD, probably lots of people can design a crap lens. Very very few can design a truly memorable one.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-18-2018 at 08:13 AM.
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