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09-15-2019, 04:10 AM   #286
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
How do you know what you need as long as you don't have other options?
I know what I need by taking photographs.

09-15-2019, 04:56 AM - 1 Like   #287
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I know what I need by taking photographs.
And you take photographs by waving hands or clapping hands or you take photographs by using a camera and lenses? I assume that you use a camera and lenses like most of us. Then, in order to know what you need is to try different lenses and you can't do that with lenses that are not available in Pentax mount. Therefore you use what Ricoh made available to you without knowing if there are better (suited I think is the better word) lenses for you to take photographs. You said on different topics that f4 zoom lenses are better for a landscape photographer because they are very good optically, they are light and cheap compared to the f2.8 zoom lenses. You also said that for best results in wildlife you need those 600mm f4 lenses or similar. How do you know that as long as there aren't available in Pentax mount? Just by guessing or by looking at other manufacturers?
09-15-2019, 05:10 AM   #288
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
in order to know what you need is to try different lenses and you can't do that with lenses that are not available in Pentax mount.
QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
How do you know that as long as there aren't available in Pentax mount?
Nope. Since before I was born, the kind of view we get from lenses depends on the focal length. So there are ultra wide angle lenses, wide angles lenses, normal lenses, short tele lenses and super tele lenses. I new what type of focal length I needed to take the kind of photographs I wanted to take: ultrawide for interiors / architecture, wide to short tele for landscape and people, short tele for sports and people, and supertele for motorsports and wildlife. It happened that Ricoh releases 6 new lenses for the Pentax K1, all sharp with the 36Mp sensor of the K1, with modern glass designs and coatings, and with silent and quick AF motors. So , yeah if the Pentax system was way behind state of the art, I'd get lots of improvements for the money if I'd upgraded. But I consider that the newest glass isn't that much better than the latest Pentax glass, Pentax DFA glass still being state of the art.

---------- Post added 15-09-19 at 14:14 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
You said on different topics that f4 zoom lenses are better for a landscape photographer because they are very good optically, they are light and cheap compared to the f2.8 zoom lenses.
That's why for me the EOS R lenses would be even worse than Pentax f2.8 lenses, because Canon decided to make f2, f1.2 lenses that are big than f2.8, and so even less interesting than Pentax lenses. Nikon Z lenses f4 zooms , f1.8 primes, and PF lenses are much more in line with the priorities of nature photographers.
09-15-2019, 05:14 AM   #289
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You can have the choice of 200 lenses, but if you only use a 16-35, 24-70 and 70-200, the choice of 200 lenses remains mental concept. Same for cameras.
When you have options, it's more like that you decide what lenses to buy, not you're dictated what to buy by your camera's manufacturer... 10 years ago it wasn't so, but now Pentax seems to be the only brand with no other autofocus lenses options. Farewell to Sigma and Tamron for K mount, the same to Zeiss and modern Samyangs. I don't quite like that trend.

09-15-2019, 05:26 AM   #290
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
And you take photographs by waving hands or clapping hands or you take photographs by using a camera and lenses? I assume that you use a camera and lenses like most of us. Then, in order to know what you need is to try different lenses and you can't do that with lenses that are not available in Pentax mount. Therefore you use what Ricoh made available to you without knowing if there are better (suited I think is the better word) lenses for you to take photographs. You said on different topics that f4 zoom lenses are better for a landscape photographer because they are very good optically, they are light and cheap compared to the f2.8 zoom lenses. You also said that for best results in wildlife you need those 600mm f4 lenses or similar. How do you know that as long as there aren't available in Pentax mount? Just by guessing or by looking at other manufacturers?
There's a difference between being a photographer and having the need to constantly try out new gear, which is essentially consumerism. If you have what works for you, and you get the images you like, exploring new gear is a waste of your life, from a photographic context. Over the years many of us have put together a kit that completely meets our needs for the things we do. The idea that we should want things we don't need just because we are there is just marketing scams. The camera industry is currently differentiation on frills. Not things people have to have.

SO why do I not have the latest greatest. It's expensive, beyond what I'm willing to pay for a hobby. There's no reason to. I get the results I want from the opportunities I have. Your attitude is pretty insulting. It's pretty much "if you don't do it like I do it, you don't know what's available." The counter argument is, "if I'm happy with my results I don't need to waste time investigating other systems."

The thing is, you don't know better than anyone else what might suit them. You know what works for you. If you don't want people criticizing your blatant consumerism, maybe you should not be criticizing people who are happy to work with what they have. After all it's about what makes them happy, not what makes you happy.

Honestly, the amount you've spent in the last year on gear would be completely irresponsible for me. And your opinion that my life is somehow diminished if I'm not exploring new gear all the time makes you a dupe of camera marketing departments. There's only one way to respond to such ignorance... "it's not your call."

I've seen a lot of new stuff out there, just because of where I shoot. None of it devalues the value of my images or my camera. It's just new stuff people bought. Anyone shooting Canon, I have two words for you Dynamic Range. I know 3 pros who've sold their Canon gear for Nikon to increase their Dynamic Range. You can go on and on abut Canon this and Canon that, but, the people who shoot what I shoot, don't shoot Canon anything, mirrorless or not, and the ones who did have switched to something else. What you propose is worthless to me, and perhaps what i shoot is worthless to you. So let's not start telling each other what we need for gear, or what we need to investigate.

Of the guys I shoot with, I no longer know even one landscape/wildlife shooters shooting Canon. The only guys shooting Canon are straight wildlife. I don't know what gives you the nerve to come on here and spout this stuff. You don't get it do you? From our perspective, you made the wrong choice. I can list a dozen things I admire about Canon, but it's not for me... and that's that. If the sensor doesn't meet your needs, everything else is non-sense.

But if you want to talk new stuff.. have you tried a Nikon D850 with one of the new lightweight telephotos. That seems to be the current rage in my neck of the woods. How could an informed guy like yourself have missed that? How could a stiff like myself who doesn't investigate new things know that, and apparently you don't? How's that possible?

Sony has had mirrorless for years, I had a long discussion with a Mr.s Tam about mirrorless before you were even on the forum,. Funny how many years later Canon releases a mirrorless and now you're mirrorless advocate.

There's a pretty good chance people on the forum are not in tune with the Canon ethos. it doesn't matter what anyone says, we probably aren't going to look at Canon. We made that decision long ago. However we have a number of Sony shooters on the forum. If you want to talk mirrorless, why would you even be discussing Canon? Everyone here has bought into Sony sensors. You're talking to the wrong crowd. 99% of the Canons out there are not as good as my 9 year old K-5 for what I do. And I haven't used that camera in 6 years.

I wish I had video'd my craft show buddy glowing over his D810 and telling me how much he wished he'd switched from Canon years earlier. I'd play it for you. Yours isn't the only opinion out there. Try and have little respect for other' opinions. They know their style , needs and workflow. You don't. Try and understand their perspective. That's what the forum is for. But if you're going to start pushing "Be the first one on your block to own a Canon (or mirrorless or whatever" type consumerism, well there's a sign on my door that says.. "no vendors."


Don't make me sic the dogs on you.

Last edited by normhead; 09-15-2019 at 07:33 AM.
09-15-2019, 05:49 AM   #291
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It happened that Ricoh releases 6 new lenses for the Pentax K1, all sharp with the 36Mp sensor of the K1, with modern glass designs and coatings, and with silent and quick AF motors.
It also happens that Ricoh released a 36mp camera which you knew from when you were a child that is going to be perfect for you. Nice... You must be very lucky to predict the future... Or, you tried all the other Pentax full frame cameras and you realised that K1 is the right one? Or you simply didn't had a choice because you only have K1 to buy as a full frame camera? In terms of APS-C cameras Pentax does offer choices and tell me that this is not better than having one option.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's why for me the EOS R lenses would be even worse than Pentax f2.8 lenses, because Canon decided to make f2, f1.2 lenses that are big than f2.8, and so even less interesting than Pentax lenses. Nikon Z lenses f4 zooms , f1.8 primes, and PF lenses are much more in line with the priorities of nature photographers.
Ah, I see... The new Canon f2 lens is massive and the f1.2 primes are also massive, but the f2.8 Pentax trinity lenses and the Nikon f1.8 primes and the f4 zoom lenses are "much more in line with the priorities of nature photographers". So, Pentax and Nikon offer choices to photographers and Canon mirrorless doesn't.

Then, can you tell me why a 15-30mm f2.8 lens that weights 1040g is better for your needs than a 15-35mm f2.8 lens that weights 840g? And can you tell me how a 70-200mm f2.8 lens can be better for your needs at 1755g than an equivalent lens that weights 1350g? I'm asking because from these 2 lenses you save 605g and you have extra 5mm on the wide lens and also a smaller lens when comes to 70-200mm f2.8 lens. Canon seems to go for a f2 trinity zoom lenses and also for the f2.8 and f4 trinity lenses. Would this be a bad thing for a Pentaxian, to have 3 options to choose from? If so, then so be it. But I'm not buying that...

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 09-15-2019 at 06:27 AM.
09-15-2019, 05:50 AM   #292
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
And you take photographs by waving hands or clapping hands or you take photographs by using a camera and lenses? I assume that you use a camera and lenses like most of us. Then, in order to know what you need is to try different lenses and you can't do that with lenses that are not available in Pentax mount. Therefore you use what Ricoh made available to you without knowing if there are better (suited I think is the better word) lenses for you to take photographs. You said on different topics that f4 zoom lenses are better for a landscape photographer because they are very good optically, they are light and cheap compared to the f2.8 zoom lenses. You also said that for best results in wildlife you need those 600mm f4 lenses or similar. How do you know that as long as there aren't available in Pentax mount? Just by guessing or by looking at other manufacturers?
You are at least a semi-pro photographer. You have posted several photos that you have sold here on the Forum. And that is great.

Most of us here are amateurs. Hopefully amateurs with improving skills, but amateurs none the less and not necessarily ones with unlimited budgets. If we can make Pentax gear and lenses fit our needs, then I suppose that is fine.

I don't shoot wildlife and so the lack of a 600mm f4 lens is not an issue to me. Chris Mak who has switched to Canon has said that he would seriously consider buying a Pentax APS-C body and DA 560 lens down the road as he can't afford the Canon's equivalent. So, there is that as well.

09-15-2019, 05:59 AM - 1 Like   #293
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
There's a difference between being a photographer and having the need to constantly try out new gear, which is essentially consumerism. If you have what works for you, and you get the images you like, exploring new gear is a waste of your life, from a photographic context. Over the years many of us have put together a kit that completely meets our needs for the things we do. The idea that we should want things we don't need just because we are there is just marketing scams. The camera industry is currently differentiation on frills. Not things people have to have.

SO why do I not have the latest greatest. It's expensive, beyond what I'm willing to pay for a hobby. There's no reason to. I get the results I want from the opportunities I have. Your attitude is pretty insulting. It's pretty much "if you don't do it like I do it, you don't know what's available." The counter argument is, "if I'm happy with my results I don't need to waste team investigating other systems."

The thing is, you don't know better than anyone else what might suit them. You know what works for you. If you don't want people criticizing your blatant consumerism, maybe you should be criticizing people who are happy to work with what they have. After all it's about what makes them happy, not what makes you happy.

Honestly, the amount you've spent in the last year on gear would be completely irresponsible for me. And your opinion that my life is somehow diminished if I'm not exploring new gear all the time makes you a dupe of camera marketing departments. There's only one way to describe such ignorance... "it's not your call."

I've seen a lot of new stuff out there, just because of where I shoot. None of it devalues the value of my images or my camera. It's just new stuff people bought. Anyone shooting Canon, I have two words for you Dynamic Range. I know 3 pros who've sold their Canon gear for Nikon to increase their Dynamic Range. You can go on and on abut Canon this and Canon that, but, the people who shoot what I shoot, don't shoot Canon anything, mirrorless or not. What you propose is worthless to me, and perhaps what i shoot is worthless to you. SO let's not start telling each other what we need for gear, or what we need to investigate.

I wish I had video'd my craft show buddy glowing over his D810 and telling me how much he wished he'd switched from Canon years earlier. I'd play it for you. Yours isn't the only opinion out there. Try and have little respect for others opinions. They know their style , needs and workflow. You don't. Try and understand their perspective. That's what the forum is for. But if you're going to start pushing "Be the first one on your block to own and Canon (or mirrorless or whatever" type consumerism, well there's a sign on my door tha says.. "no vendors."

Don't make me sic the dogs on you.
Normhead, it's not about Canon or Nikon or Sony. You may try and go to that route, but the discussion was about the needs and how can you tell that some lenses aren't what you need if they are not available in your mount? It's valid also for Canon that doesn't have a 105mm f1.4 lens for example and I sure try such a lens and buy it if it will be better for portraits than my 85mm lens.

You always say you don't need a 70-200mm f2.8 lens but instead you want an f4 version. It's about having choices and that's why I said that I hope Pentax won't listen to Biz-engineer and it will release as many lenses available in order to have choices. So please don't start always with " your comment is insulting" and stop for a moment and think about it because I don't say anything different than you. I just use other words.

---------- Post added 09-15-19 at 01:05 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You are at least a semi-pro photographer. You have posted several photos that you have sold here on the Forum. And that is great.

Most of us here are amateurs. Hopefully amateurs with improving skills, but amateurs none the less and not necessarily ones with unlimited budgets. If we can make Pentax gear and lenses fit our needs, then I suppose that is fine.

I don't shoot wildlife and so the lack of a 600mm f4 lens is not an issue to me. Chris Mak who has switched to Canon has said that he would seriously consider buying a Pentax APS-C body and DA 560 lens down the road as he can't afford the Canon's equivalent. So, there is that as well.
Are you reading a different topic? I was asking how come you know you don't need a lens if that lens is not available in Pentax mount? That's what I asked.
You said that instead of buying a new 6D Mark II I can get a second hand 5D Mark IV in good shape and my answer to you was "it's good to have choices, isn't?". You don't know which camera is better for you as long as you have one model. If you had 2 models, you knew which one is suited for you, right?

And you talk about unlimited budget when I was talking about the f4 version of the trinity lenses as an alternative/option for you to choose from and see which one is better for you.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 09-15-2019 at 06:45 AM.
09-15-2019, 06:40 AM   #294
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I was asking how come you know you don't need a lens if that lens is not available in Pentax mount? That's what I asked.
I can't speak for Rondec, but it's not that hard for an experienced photographer to learn the span of capabilities and characteristics of photographic lenses. From that, they can know whether a given lens might be worth buying even if they have never handled that lens and even if that lens is not available on their brand of camera.

There's nothing magic about optics. Most of the fundamental characteristics of a lens (angle-of-view, DoF, perspective effects, etc.) are easily predicted from a bit of math using the focal length and aperture. Other characteristics such as distortion, sharpness across the field, field curvature, contrast/saturation, color, aberrations, bokeh, etc. can be easily assessed from either technical tests or sample images. After shooting a wide enough range of focal lengths, range of apertures, range of lens qualities, and range of photographic scenarios, it's easy to assess if some new lens offers something worth buying.

Personally, I don't need to actually try a lens to know how good it will be for me.
09-15-2019, 06:51 AM   #295
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Personally, I don't need to actually try a lens to know how good it will be for me.
Then how do you know if you need an f1.8 prime or an f1.2 one? An 85mm or an 100mm prime? Or how do you know if you need an f4 zoom lens or an f2.8 lens? Or how do you know you need a K1 and not a Pentax 24mp fast camera or a 45mp Pentax camera with 8fps? You don't if it doesn't exist in your mount and you guess you don't need a lens or a camera...

You know what's the funny part of this discussion? You all agree with me because in most topics you (not you in particular) say:
- Rondec: he always say that he would like a wide prime for landscape with modern coatings, not necessarily an f1.4 prime, because the 15-30mm is heavy to carry around all day; he also say he would like a K1 with a fast buffer and a little more improved af
- Normhead: he always say he doesn't like where Pentax is going with these new heavy lenses and he hopes he will get some f4 lenses; he also say he would love a K1 with at least 8 fps to match the K3 fps; and he also say he is considering selling his K1 and stick with APS-C if Pentax will release an update of K3
- Biz-engineer most of the time would like a D500 equivalent with a long f4 prime for wildlife and he would also like some light lenses for landscape

But when I say that is good to have options and that I hope Pentax will release many lenses in order to have choices or that I hope they will release another 2-3 full frame cameras, you all jump at my neck. This is like I said, the most funniest topic ever.

In case that all of you forgot why this discussion started, here is a short reminder.

Rondec to me "Sure, but for those who don't care (they don't need f2 zooms and are OK with having a mirror), they could end up with amazing deals -- a gently used 5D IV for the price you would pay for a new 6D II."

My response to Rondec: "It's good to have choices, isn't it?"


So, he basically told me that I can get a better camera at the same price as the one that is not as good as the one he think is better, but when I told him that is nice to have options, the debate has started.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 09-15-2019 at 07:01 AM.
09-15-2019, 07:03 AM   #296
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
- Biz-engineer most of the time would like a D500 equivalent with a long f4 prime for wildlife and he would also like some light lenses for landscape
No. I'm more into landscape photographs now. I've lost interest in the kind of things Sony A9 does, it's volume, there's not challenge, anyone can do it with laying out 4500 in the Sony body and again more money on the lenses, you buy the technology, spray and pray and it delivers thousands of technical images. There is more merit to photographs where equipment is irrelevant. Otherwise, if money can buy good photographs, then just buy the photographs already taken, it's faster. Buying all the new things from Canon & all, is not about photography, it is about being infected by the GAS/LBA virus. So I guess my virus left my body and infected you Dan. All your post show the symptoms of severe LBA. I'm glad I'm a Pentaxians, because if I was a Sonyan I'd still be convinced that eye AF is the only way to take a good image, and if I was educated by Canon I'd still believe that I can take a good picture without an f1.2 lens.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-15-2019 at 07:11 AM.
09-15-2019, 07:13 AM   #297
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
There is more merit to photographs where equipment is irrelevant. Otherwise, if money can buy good photographs, then just buy the photographs already taken, it's faster.
Then why are you shooting with K1 and not with a k5, K3 or with a KP? It's because you have the choice to buy a better camera, which is K1, for landscapes? Right? Hm... I thought it's irrelevant the gear since Rondec is pushing the discussion to unlimited budget and you're pushing the discussion to gear that is irrelevant if you want to have a much more credit for your images. A Pentax K5s, a K3 or a K1 is cheaper than a K1 and they all have already a great dynamic range. As soon as K1 came out and also the new lenses, you and Rondec bought them (except Normhead who bought only the camera, not the trinity lenses). And Rondec bought also the K1 II and I think you also. Come one Biz-Engineer... you're selling cucumbers to the gardener here...

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 09-15-2019 at 07:19 AM.
09-15-2019, 07:20 AM   #298
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Then why are you shooting with K1 and not with a k5, K3 or with a KP? It's because you have the choice to buy a better camera, which is K1, for landscapes?
Yes, you seem to have difficulties to understand how customers evolve over time. From the K3 to the K1 was apsc to full frame, more that a stop of dynamic range for landscape images. I wouldn't say there is such improvement between an 5DIV and EOS R, I would say, the EOS R can be worse when pulling shadows of landscape images due to coverage of the sensor by AF mask. I guess you'd be looking at benefiting from eye AF when using an EOS R over a 5DIV for photographing portraits with razor thin depth of field.
09-15-2019, 07:28 AM   #299
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
From the K3 to the K1 was apsc to full frame, more that a stop of dynamic range for landscape images.
Yes, I understood exactly what you were saying. But you already have a great dynamic range on KP for example and landscapes are taken at ISO 100 most of the times and you need to pixel peep images to tell a difference in image quality between KP and K1 at ISO 100. And again, what happened to "the better the gear the less irrelevant images are"? You bought K1 II after you bought K1? If the answer is yes, then please don't tell me about how infected I am because I bought the EOS R.
09-15-2019, 07:38 AM - 1 Like   #300
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Then how do you know if you need an f1.8 prime or an f1.2 one? An 85mm or an 100mm prime? Or how do you know if you need an f4 zoom lens or an f2.8 lens? Or how do you know you need a K1 and not a Pentax 24mp fast camera or a 45mp Pentax camera with 8fps? You don't if it doesn't exist in your mount and you guess you don't need a lens or a camera...
How do I know? Experience and an engineering background.

I've used focal lengths from 12mm on FF to 600 mm on APS-C, f/1.2 primes to f/6.3 zooms, ∞-focus to 6:1 macro. And I've done enough optical and sensor design work to easily estimate what some new lens, new aperture, and new sensor will do in some new imaging scenario. And by extension, it's not hard to take a new imaging scenario and photographic goal and then deduce the best focal length, aperture, and camera-subject distances.

For example, I've never used an 85/1.4 and yet I know exactly how it will behave because I've used both that focal length (at other apertures), used that aperture (on other focal lengths), and run the math for an even wider range of focal lengths and apertures in enough different settings that's the behavior of an 85/1.4 is entirely predictable to me. And I know I'm am right about my predictions because when I see other peoples pictures taken with 85/1.4, they show no surprises in their photographic appearance.

It's just like going to the gym and seeing a 25 kg weight. I don't need to pick it up to know exactly how it's going to feel.
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