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02-15-2019, 07:00 PM   #61
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Yep, great example.

Some AI made it into the new Olympus camera as well. I believe for panorama stitches and the autofocus learning, among other things.

02-15-2019, 07:14 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
People looking for a full frame camera would presumably know why they WANT full-frame, and that entry-level Canon doesn't look to me to be one that would be highly desirable for an informed crowd.
Maybe they have two concerns
1. want camera that will make modern Canon lenses available
2. want old 50mm lens to "act like a 50mm lens".
02-15-2019, 08:38 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
what a joke of a camera in low light.
Makes sense - A7II AF and metering is only rated for -1 to 20 EV, which is poor and merely K-x equivalent. A9 and A7 III started to do better with -3 EV.

The new Canon mirrorless are claiming -5 EV AF (EOS R) and -6 EV (EOS RP) with a fast lens, which is amazing low-light performance if true. More usefully, the RP also claims it's AF fully works at f11, making it potentially great for telephoto and teleconverter.
02-16-2019, 01:17 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mountain Vision Quote
Yep, great example.Some AI made it into the new Olympus camera as well. I believe for panorama stitches and the autofocus learning, among other things.
If AI means Artificial Intelligence, the examples given for Google pixel 3 aren't using it, it's all about align & stack frames and image processing. AI used concepts such as machine learning and probabilistic decision making based on past events (neural network model). So , if we consider A.I to be used by Google pixel 3, than we can also say that Ricoh are using A.I. in the Pentax K3 and Pentax K1 (scene recognition and deep learning from the 86K AE sensor and images taken).

02-16-2019, 03:45 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's because they have a more robust development approach based on clear decisions about what features are in and out of each camera models.
Frequent firmware updates in the camera sector is a sign of shaky software engineering process, or marketing driven updates to keep brand awareness alive.
I think part of it is that Sony keeps their cameras around for so long. Most camera brands discontinue cameras when they release another one, but Sony just lowers the price a little and keeps it in their line up.

To what you were saying about lack of coherence of vision, I was looking on B and H and currently you can buy a A7, A7 II, A7r II, A7 III, A7s II, A7r III, and A9 cameras from them. I try to keep track of specs at least a little bit and it is hard for me to remember which one of those does which things. I have to think it is a bit confusing to consumers who are trying to get a start on things.
02-16-2019, 04:07 AM   #66
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Add in A6000/A6300/A6500,then you have 7 cameras that overheat and have poor battery life.
02-16-2019, 04:23 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
To what you were saying about lack of coherence of vision, I was looking on B and H and currently you can buy a A7, A7 II, A7r II, A7 III, A7s II, A7r III, and A9 cameras from them. I try to keep track of specs at least a little bit and it is hard for me to remember which one of those does which things. I have to think it is a bit confusing to consumers who are trying to get a start on things.
Yes. A classic is to have 3 products well differentiated an well positioned. I noticed the EOS RP not only has different imaging spec but they designed a different body, whereas Sony offer nearly the same build quality regardless of the price. For me, the A7rIII and the A9, the body quality isn't in line with the price. For >$3K I would expect a robust camera body as well as weather sealing.

02-16-2019, 05:43 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Makes sense - A7II AF and metering is only rated for -1 to 20 EV, which is poor and merely K-x equivalent. A9 and A7 III started to do better with -3 EV.
At least the Sony A7 II's manual gives me some credibility when I said that the af is bad in low light based on my experience with that camera.
02-16-2019, 06:09 AM   #69
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On a side note,Nikon have announced firmware updates for the Z series.
Raw video
CF fast card compatibility
Eye AF
Are the main items so they become competitive up against the top end $onys
02-16-2019, 06:13 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
On a side note,Nikon have announced firmware updates for the Z series.
Raw video
CF fast card compatibility
Eye AF
Are the main items so they become competitive up against the top end $onys
How can it take CF fast card if it only has an XQD slot?

Edit: So I see CF Express cards have the same form factor as the XQD cards. They are still about 100 dollars for a 128 Gig card, but pretty fast (not sure how much faster than standard XQD cards in the real world).

Last edited by Rondec; 02-16-2019 at 06:20 AM.
02-16-2019, 06:20 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think you are misunderstanding something. I have not owned a Canon since I sold the 5D. I have shot with a lot of them. I have shot thousands of frames with a 5DIII and a 1DIV. When I was shooting a significant number of wedding I worked with several photographers who would either shoot as my second or I would shoot as theirs. I would use their Canon gear so that when they went to edit they didn't have to deal with different RAW files and different color profiles.


If you like Canon, shoot with Canon. Canon has great pro-support, great lenses, great marketing, great distribution, but their cameras are average at best.


The EOS-RP is going to be another average camera with dated technology. Hopefully they will release a upper-end model with more advanced technology. The more competition in the market the better.
I would really love to see some files from A9 and 5D Mark IV from you where the A9 files are much better. Again, I'm not a fan of DXO charts, but the dynamic range from 5D Mark IV is rated better than A9. In practice, there is no difference in recovering shadows. Yes, the A9 has a better af-c, but as all other cameras from all manufacturers will miss focus from time to time in restaurants with dim light, even with the famous eye af. Maybe with the upcoming update they will make A9 af perfect. And yes, A9 also has a little better high ISO than 5D Mark IV. But, if you resize the 5D Mark IV from 30mp to 24mp to match the A9 files, the noise will be similar.

Here is a print screen with 2 zoomed images taken with A9. It's my father in law in the images, dancind with his wife. He knew he is being photographed so he didn't moved too much. These are 2 images from a series of 3 consecutives images. If you look at both images, you will see that on the left image the focus is on the nose, not on the eye like it is on the right. And I have quite a few similar images from that event where A9 missed focus. Yes, my 5D also misses focus from time to time, but it's far from being "average at best" to quote you.


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 02-16-2019 at 08:43 AM.
02-16-2019, 06:28 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If AI means Artificial Intelligence, the examples given for Google pixel 3 aren't using it, it's all about align & stack frames and image processing..
They're not accomplishing it in the way you think they are, not that simple.
Google explains the magic behind the Pixel 3's Super Res Zoom
Google AI Blog: Night Sight: Seeing in the Dark on Pixel Phones
02-16-2019, 06:42 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Makes sense - A7II AF and metering is only rated for -1 to 20 EV, which is poor and merely K-x equivalent. A9 and A7 III started to do better with -3 EV.

The new Canon mirrorless are claiming -5 EV AF (EOS R) and -6 EV (EOS RP) with a fast lens, which is amazing low-light performance if true. More usefully, the RP also claims it's AF fully works at f11, making it potentially great for telephoto and teleconverter.
Focusing for my KP is listed as going down to -3 EV. I've noticed that it goes farther down when I'm using LV instead of the OVF, so a MILC should do well, but when I took photos of a raccoon's midnight raid
Post Your Best KP Shots - Page 70 - PentaxForums.com
I had to resort to manual focusing.
02-16-2019, 06:47 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
On a side note,Nikon have announced firmware updates for the Z series.
Raw video
CF fast card compatibility
Eye AF
Are the main items so they become competitive up against the top end $onys
Beware of the features game, whether by firmware upgrade or from new. All that matters is whether the features work properly, not whether they are just about possible with a following wind. It all depends on whether a camera's electronics and software are powerful enough to do the job. And if not, then it becomes all about ticking the marketing boxes. Do the current Zs have enough processing power in them?
02-16-2019, 08:38 AM - 3 Likes   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If AI means Artificial Intelligence, the examples given for Google pixel 3 aren't using it, it's all about align & stack frames and image processing. AI used concepts such as machine learning and probabilistic decision making based on past events (neural network model). So , if we consider A.I to be used by Google pixel 3, than we can also say that Ricoh are using A.I. in the Pentax K3 and Pentax K1 (scene recognition and deep learning from the 86K AE sensor and images taken).
QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
"AI" is being co-opted by marketers as the buzzword of the month and being used in places where it really doesn't apply, at least not in the strictest sense. Computational photography is not AI.

In that article for Night Sight, for example, they say that machine learning (AI) was used to improve their white balance algorithm:

"we developed a learning-based AWB algorithm, trained to discriminate between a well-white-balanced image and a poorly balanced one. When a captured image is poorly balanced, the algorithm can suggest how to shift its colors to make the illumination appear more neutral. Training this algorithm required photographing a diversity of scenes using Pixel phones, then hand-correcting their white balance while looking at the photo on a color-calibrated monitor."

In other words, they used AI in development to improve their AWB algorithm and then that algorithm is baked into the phone. There is no AI happening when a photo is taken. And I suspect that the same is happening with the new Olympus camera - AI was used to improve their AF algorithm and then that improved AF algorithm is baked into the camera.

The truest test of whether or not AI is happening in the phone or camera is whether or not that particular device is learning as photos are taken. Is a Google Pixel 3 phone that's been used for a year better at taking photos than one that's just been taken out of the box? Is an Olympus camera that's been used to photograph birds for a year better than a brand new Olympus camera? The answer to both of those questions is no.

Last edited by johnmflores; 02-16-2019 at 09:07 AM.
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