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07-09-2019, 02:52 AM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Maybe the algorithms for Canon files are not as good in Lightroom?! I was a big fan of Lightroom until I discovered by accident the Canon software (Canon DPP). It's been more than one year since I stopped using Lightroom or Camera RAW to edit images because the difference is quite visibile between these editing software. I use Canon DPP software for basic edit and if the file needs some retouching in Photoshop, I export the files in TIFF format from Canon DPP.




Winder, we are a group of close friends shooting with different systems. Some of us are using Canon, some Sony, some Nikon, some are using 2 systems. We go out as often as we can and from time to time we do these tests as a "treatment" for GAS (gear acquisition syndrome), not to convince anyone about anything.

The images were in landscape orientation and we transformed them in portraits by applying 2x3 ratio instead of the original ratio (3x2) in order to remove the parts from the images that weren't interesting to us, that's all. There wasn't any resize of the images and it doesn't matter if you zoom in a landscape image or a portrait image as long as the images weren't resized.

All the images were RAW and converted to JPEG in their own software (for Canon we used Canon DPP, for Nikon we used Capture NX-D, and for Sony we used Capture One Pro). We haven't touched the images by adding contrast, saturation, etc. to them. The only one who edited one of the images from that test was my nephew (the boy from the image) who became interested in photography and editing and he used my Photoshop action to edit himself. Below is the image edited by him (I've taken it from his Facebook page).

So, if you ask me, as long as we used the original software to convert the RAW files into JPEG files, our results are closer to reality than the ones using one software for all the images. Lightroom is good as a software for the photographers who have to edit images in batch and not for getting the most out of the RAW files. And as I showed you in the second crop from Lightroom and Canon DPP, it seems that Lightroom does reduce the sharpness in Canon raw files and because of that some think that Canon is applying noise reduction or smothening in their raw files. We may still have the RAW files from that test and when I'll get back from holiday I'll look for them on my hard drive. If not, we will go out again in one week and we can do other tests.




---------- Post added 07-09-19 at 08:07 AM ----------



I don't think that people who buy Canon RP are looking for best image quality and durability. They will probably be interested in the Canon RP with that super zoom lens because this combo gives them:

- a light combo (Canon RP weights 485g with card and battery)
- a versatile lens for the ones who don't want to invest in another lens
- an articulating touchscreen LCD
- 4k video capabilities
- the idea of having a full frame sensor for low light situations
- EVF (it could be a plus for some and to others it may be the reason for not to buy it)

And there is another major factor that you have to take into consideration. Canon is present all over (internet or store shelves), while Pentax is hard to find even online if you know nothing about cameras in general. I know I wouldn't buy this Canon new lens and if I buy RP I would probably use it on vacations with the RF 35mm f1.8 lens or with EF 16-35mm f4 lens. It hasn't been available for renting yet, but for traveling I'm considering getting the RP just for the size, weight and for the fact that I can use my lenses without compromises.

Speaking of internet presence, even if almost everyone on internet speaks only about how better Sony is compared to competition, Canon somehow managed to increase their market share in 2018. They may know the market better than the influencers out there. It seems that Nikon and Sony have the direct battle for market share...

Canon 40.5 % (+ 3.9)
Nikon 19.1 % (- 2.7)
Sony 17.7 % (- 0.7)
Fujifilm: 5.1 % (+ 1.3)
Olympus: 2.8 % (+ 0.1)


And the link to the article Digital camera market down 22% for 2018, the latest global market share: Canon 40.5 %, Nikon 19.1 %, Sony 17.7 % - Nikon Rumors
I have no doubt that Canon will sell a lot of these cameras. And the people who buy this combo won't ask me what to get. It is just that my experience with super zooms, even on large sensor cameras has been that they steal a lot of the enjoyable aspects of using such a camera. They are flexible and light weight and that's about it. I would much prefer to spend my 900 dollars lens budget on the something like the Canon 24-70 f4L, but I guess each to his own, as I said before.

07-09-2019, 02:56 AM   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I have no doubt that Canon will sell a lot of these cameras. And the people who buy this combo won't ask me what to get. It is just that my experience with super zooms, even on large sensor cameras has been that they steal a lot of the enjoyable aspects of using such a camera. They are flexible and light weight and that's about it. I would much prefer to spend my 900 dollars lens budget on the something like the Canon 24-70 f4L, but I guess each to his own, as I said before.
When comes to lenses, I tend to go for the ones where the zoom is not more than 3x (ex. 24-70mm, 70-200mm, 16-35mm). The 6x, 10x zoom lenses are for the ones not really interested in photography but want better images from vacations than what their phones can provide.
07-09-2019, 03:06 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
When comes to lenses, I tend to go for the ones where the zoom is not more than 3x (ex. 24-70mm, 70-200mm, 16-35mm). The 6x, 10x zoom lenses are for the ones not really interested in photography but want better images from vacations than what their phones can provide.
Sure.

It might be a nice lens to have in addition to others -- mainly to use for vacations or things like that. It's just if that is your only lens, you might do just as well getting an 80D with a Tamron super zoom, like the 18-400 and you'd actually have a little money left over for an APS-C prime.
07-09-2019, 03:12 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Who said mirrorless is a must have, or prove that mirrorless camera take better images. For me, going from 700 x 36Mp CIPA shots on a K1 to 250 x 20Mp CIPA shots in a RP and having to buy a new set of RF lenses, isn't progress, it's about get less for more money.
We are talking here like if all of us are printing large at least 40% of the keeper images. Resolution is just for bragging rights on internet for the photographers who don't work regularly with clients who buy large prints.

At 4096px (4k resolution) you need magnification glass to tell the difference between K1, A7 R III, D610, RP, GFX 50, etc. images

If it's not the life of the battery it's about the weight and some will say that they much preffer the RP for the 485g weight rather than shoot with a 925g camera. And the examples can go in each direction for years to come.

That doesn't mean that I don't agree with you to go for the camera that gives you the most beautiful experience at the lower cost, no matter the brand.

---------- Post added 07-09-19 at 10:21 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Sure.

It might be a nice lens to have in addition to others -- mainly to use for vacations or things like that. It's just if that is your only lens, you might do just as well getting an 80D with a Tamron super zoom, like the 18-400 and you'd actually have a little money left over for an APS-C prime.
Yes and no.

RP weights 485g with memory card and battery, 80D weights 730g and it's double the size. 18mm on Canon APS-C means 29mm on a full frame. Those extra 5mm between 24mm and 29mm are important for some.

But again, usually the ones interested in such packages can buy any of these 2 cameras (EOS RP or 80D) and can't tell the differences in performance and would probably choose what the seller tells them or maybe the smaller and lighter package.


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-09-2019 at 03:35 AM.
07-09-2019, 05:23 AM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
We are talking here like if all of us are printing large at least 40% of the keeper images. Resolution is just for bragging rights on internet for the photographers who don't work regularly with clients who buy large prints.

At 4096px (4k resolution) you need magnification glass to tell the difference between K1, A7 R III, D610, RP, GFX 50, etc. images

If it's not the life of the battery it's about the weight and some will say that they much preffer the RP for the 485g weight rather than shoot with a 925g camera. And the examples can go in each direction for years to come.

That doesn't mean that I don't agree with you to go for the camera that gives you the most beautiful experience at the lower cost, no matter the brand.

---------- Post added 07-09-19 at 10:21 AM ----------



Yes and no.

RP weights 485g with memory card and battery, 80D weights 730g and it's double the size. 18mm on Canon APS-C means 29mm on a full frame. Those extra 5mm between 24mm and 29mm are important for some.

But again, usually the ones interested in such packages can buy any of these 2 cameras (EOS RP or 80D) and can't tell the differences in performance and would probably choose what the seller tells them or maybe the smaller and lighter package.
Then look at something like the Nikon D7200 with a Tamron 16-300mm (675 grams for the body plus 539 grams for the lens). That will get you a 24mm equivalent to 450 equivalent (with regard to field of view) if that's important to you. And the cost would be in the 1300 dollar range.
07-09-2019, 05:46 AM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Then look at something like the Nikon D7200 with a Tamron 16-300mm (675 grams for the body plus 539 grams for the lens). That will get you a 24mm equivalent to 450 equivalent (with regard to field of view) if that's important to you. And the cost would be in the 1300 dollar range.
There are lots of options for those who seek such packages... I don't need any. I was talking about field of view because in vacations I use the 16-35mm f4L lens more than any other lens and I stay between 16 and 30mm most of the times. I started to leave at home my 70-200mm f4L lens because the 85mm f1.8 is enough as a tele lens, it's smaller and is lighter and it's useful also in low light situations. That's why personally I'm interested in Canon RP. It will reduce big time my backpack weight and size for vacations but I keep the same field of view with my current lenses.
07-09-2019, 08:55 AM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
When comes to lenses, I tend to go for the ones where the zoom is not more than 3x (ex. 24-70mm, 70-200mm, 16-35mm). The 6x, 10x zoom lenses are for the ones not really interested in photography but want better images from vacations than what their phones can provide.
You need to dial back on these judgemental comments. I love my 5.5X DA 55-300mm ..... 77-420mm with the 1.4X TC. My smartphone is not competition - only my Q-7 with a K-mount lens is. I resist the comment that I'm "not interested in photography". I am interested in the best photographs I can get on my budget.

added: when writing this, I completely forgot my 7.5X DA 18-135mm lens, which is much much better than the DA 18-55mm lens that was kitted with my camera. Again, the 'competing' lens would be the 3X DA 18-55, then my Q-7 with its '02' lens.


Last edited by reh321; 07-09-2019 at 09:23 AM.
07-09-2019, 09:04 AM   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
We are talking here like if all of us are printing large at least 40% of the keeper images. Resolution is just for bragging rights on internet for the photographers who don't work regularly with clients who buy large prints.

That doesn't mean that I don't agree with you to go for the camera that gives you the most beautiful experience at the lower cost, no matter the brand.
Here you are arguing with yourself. I did try a 18-250mm back in my days as a Canon user; my only reason for ditching it was that it didn't give me a "beautiful experience" {I would use the term "enjoyable experience"}. I went back to the two lens system I was using before .... smart phone was never the alternative.
07-09-2019, 10:17 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
You need to dial back on these judgemental comments. I love my 5.5X DA 55-300mm ..... 77-420mm with the 1.4X TC. My smartphone is not competition - only my Q-7 with a K-mount lens is. I resist the comment that I'm "not interested in photography". I am interested in the best photographs I can get on my budget.
I don't need to dial back anything. I'm talking about performance and the 5x, 6x, 10x zoom lenses are visible inferior to the 3x zoom lenses in terms of build quality and optical performance.

As for the other comment, it wasn't intended to offend anyone. We see things differently and I get that, but the so called lack of budget is one of the most used "arguments" I see in online discussions. There are tons of methods to gain some money in one year for example with low budget cameras and lenses:

- shooting portraits for friends (from 50 friends if you photograph 15 of them for 10$ each you just made 150$)
- uploading images to stock agencies
- going to small stores and offer them some cheap deals
- etc.

---------- Post added 07-09-19 at 05:22 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Here you are arguing with yourself. I did try a 18-250mm back in my days as a Canon user; my only reason for ditching it was that it didn't give me a "beautiful experience" {I would use the term "enjoyable experience"}. I went back to the two lens system I was using before .... smart phone was never the alternative.
If you pay a little attention, I was talking about cameras in this comment, not about lenses. Lenses are a lot more important than cameras.

Yes, enjoyable experience sound much better and probably is the correct term also.
07-09-2019, 10:24 AM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
We are talking here like if all of us are printing large at least 40% of the keeper images. Resolution is just for bragging rights on internet for the photographers who don't work regularly with clients who buy large prints.
No matter how many times that is repeated, everyone acts like they print large.
The number of people who have told me they don't currently print large but want resolution incase they do some day is simply mind boggling. It seems most people and hi res cameras as insurance policies against future regret.

With images like my bird images, I can't even imaging printing large. Who in their right mind wants an image of a bird 50 times life size on their wall?
07-09-2019, 10:38 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
No matter how many times that is repeated, everyone acts like they print large.
The number of people who have told me they don't currently print large but want resolution incase they do some day is simply mind boggling. It seems most people and hi res cameras as insurance policies against future regret.

With images like my bird images, I can't even imaging printing large. Who in their right mind wants an image of a bird 50 times life size on their wall?
I saw very nice images printed from a 12mp Nikon D700 camera. The print was aroud 30 inches big. And the guy shoots weddings. The 45mp image printed next to the 12mp image looked indeed better, but not that much better as I expected. If we make a poll and ask how often people print their images at more than 30 inches we may have a surprize. These days I think that more than 90% of the images are used online.
07-09-2019, 10:44 AM - 1 Like   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I saw very nice images printed from a 12mp Nikon D700 camera. The print was aroud 30 inches big. And the guy shoots weddings. The 45mp image printed next to the 12mp image looked indeed better, but not that much better as I expected. If we make a poll and ask how often people print their images at more than 30 inches we may have a surprize. These days I think that more than 90% of the images are used online.
I myself have great 30x20 canvases made from 12 MP files. We've sold a good number of them. Sadly, I have yet to make a print from a K-1 image that made full use of it's resolution, and my last large print was 40"x30" was made from a K-3 file. Honestly, I have made 0% use of the extra capacity of my K-1.
07-09-2019, 03:39 PM   #223
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For some people,well plenty once the R bodies become a refined device,this will be the jack of all trades.Obviously,for specialist tasks it may not be a great choice.

The RP + 24-240mm in good light ticks a few boxes.







---------- Post added 07-10-19 at 09:41 AM ----------

07-09-2019, 07:48 PM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
for the candidates who will be considering M/L FF?
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
For me
Well, are you a candidate? Or do you just want you opinion of K-1 on the broken record loop....over and over and over again....

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
going from 700 x 36Mp CIPA shots on a K1 to 250 x 20Mp CIPA shots in a RP
Batteries are not that expensive, 20mp FF is it?

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
and having to buy a new set of RF lenses
Buying one is enough,24-240mm.Starters in the system can build on that OR use their existing EF/s glass.


QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
it's about get less for more money.
If I was a candidate(after the K-1 goes past the 300k plus mark) to get the same FOV it'd be K-1 + 24-70 + 70-200, that's best part of 5Kish last time I looked.The RRP of canon RP is U$2200,deals will bring it to 2000.With the added convenience of not changing lenses.


Of course the Pentax lenses are both WR(24-200 isn't) and constant f2.8.However, the fact the RP has up to date moving picture capability is an advantage for some.Apples to Oranges,Biaz.
07-09-2019, 09:45 PM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Well, are you a candidate?
If I was a student, I could be a candidate for a RP and 24-240. I used to have a K200D and DA18-250, it was perfect for summer images in North Africa and the Caraibean (plenty of sun), so I know the limitations of that kind of system. I'm not a student anymore, and I know how much it cost for switching system, it's not pocket money anymore.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-09-2019 at 09:55 PM.
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