Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
04-22-2019, 06:49 AM   #1
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,359
Panasonic SR-1 Pixel-Shift Works with Motion?

https://www.l-rumors.com/diggloyd-says-the-panasonic-s1r-multi-shot-high-res...s-with-motion/

Would be big for landscape photographers if true.
Cameras with pixel shift are prone to severe and prominent artifacts like checkerboarding that are just about impossible to deal with, making pixel shift pretty much useless for field shooting, a finding from long experience and true of Pentax and Sony pixel shift (I have probably 50GB of ruined Pentax and Sony pixel shift files).
But the Panasonic S1R uses an 8-frame multi-shot high-res mode approach that performs in-camera merging of those 8 frames into single raw file with size equivalent to four frames. A smart merge, not a dumb-recording science fair project like Pentax and Sony.
For the first time besides an iPhone, I’m seeing a pro-grade field-usable computational photography feature. Huge kudos to Panasonic for achieving what the other guys could not get right.





Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-22-2019 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Masked vulgarity
04-22-2019, 07:06 AM   #2
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,265
Panasonic software look for motion between frames and substitute single frame pixels to remove image artifacts, Pentax does the same, although the Pentax MC threshold may still leave out some artifacts due to priority on sharpness.
04-22-2019, 07:32 AM   #3
Pentaxian
Site Supporter
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,767
I can't find any evidence you can actually buy this camera. The fact that the projected release date was March 18, I'm thinking there might be some issues we haven't been told about. Including whether the above mentioned feature works as designed.
04-22-2019, 07:44 AM   #4
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
luftfluss's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,432
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I can't find any evidence you can actually buy this camera. The fact that the projected release date was March 18, I'm thinking there might be some issues we haven't been told about. Including whether the above mentioned feature works as designed.

It's in stock at Amazon, B&H, etc. and also at a shop about 20 miles from my house.

04-22-2019, 07:47 AM   #5
Senior Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North-East of England
Posts: 12,502
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I can't find any evidence you can actually buy this camera. The fact that the projected release date was March 18, I'm thinking there might be some issues we haven't been told about. Including whether the above mentioned feature works as designed.
Several retailers in the UK have it in stock at GBP 3,399. In a twist on the old saying, "You pay what you get for"
04-22-2019, 08:02 AM   #6
Pentaxian
Site Supporter
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,767
QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
It's in stock at Amazon, B&H, etc. and also at a shop about 20 miles from my house.
Google failed me, I am soooo disappointed.

That will be over $4000 CAD. With no lenses. And without the availability of a 15-30 equivalent (yet recommended for landscape) The 24-105 is $1300 and is ƒ4. The 70-200 is also $1700 and is ƒ4.

So essentially we are taking about a camera with over $8k CAD, over $7k USD, with two F4 lenses and no legacy glass? Since the Pentax K-1 had the 15-30, 24-70, 70-20, 150-450, and tons of legacy glass when released, I'm astounded I haven't seen one comment about the lack of available glass for this camera, or the suitability of what's available. The standard kit for pro glass is the above. The only lens I see there that I would consider a pro lens is the 50 1.4 and it's 2,297 USD. And people complained about the DFA*50 1.4 being expensive.

$10,000 for everything available and no 15-30. If Pentax did this, the name calling around the world would be decisive, loud and constant." no lens support".

Panasonic is probably my second favourite camera company, even though I currently don't own one. I regularly purchased them for my digital media courses.

So my first questions is, where are the images that would justify such expense? Given that my K-1 is serious overkill, my feeling is this a a system of interest to only really serious pros in niche markets. There is absolutely nothing it could do that would justify that kind of cost for me personally. I hope they do well, I've always liked Panasonic. But wholey moley.

I fear they've lost their minds.

Last edited by normhead; 04-22-2019 at 08:23 AM.
04-22-2019, 08:16 AM   #7
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
luftfluss's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,432
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
https://www.l-rumors.com/diggloyd-says-the-panasonic-s1r-multi-shot-high-res...s-with-motion/

Would be big for landscape photographers if true.
Cameras with pixel shift are prone to severe and prominent artifacts like checkerboarding that are just about impossible to deal with, making pixel shift pretty much useless for field shooting, a finding from long experience and true of Pentax and Sony pixel shift (I have probably 50GB of ruined Pentax and Sony pixel shift files).
But the Panasonic S1R uses an 8-frame multi-shot high-res mode approach that performs in-camera merging of those 8 frames into single raw file with size equivalent to four frames. A smart merge, not a dumb-recording science fair project like Pentax and Sony.
For the first time besides an iPhone, I’m seeing a pro-grade field-usable computational photography feature. Huge kudos to Panasonic for achieving what the other guys could not get right.


This sounds excellent.

That said, the manner in which Lloyd Chambers scrawls his thoughts does not inspire confidence in his diligence. He really should grow up, drop the "I'm ******g Internet cool" language, and perhaps read Mike Johnston.

Edit: I just looked at the image he posted (presumably) in support of his opinion of the SR-1 PS motion handling, and I see inordinately harsh detail and some sharpening artifacts.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-23-2019 at 03:56 AM. Reason: Edited quoted masked vulgarity
04-22-2019, 08:20 AM - 1 Like   #8
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,713
I clicked through to the diglloyd post and he modified his claims at bit. Apparently moving water is still a problem.


Steve

04-22-2019, 08:29 AM   #9
Pentaxian
Site Supporter
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,767
I look forward to the camera being listed on Flickr, although I notice they don't ship until April 28. I'll be looking for proof that someone actually bought one. I can only assume there are Panasonic users as brand loyal as Pentax users who have been waiting for years for a full frame body.

But $10,000 for less than a basic kit, might be too high a buy in price for many.

Last edited by normhead; 04-22-2019 at 08:44 AM.
04-22-2019, 08:37 AM   #10
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,713
QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I just looked at the image he posted (presumably) in support of his opinion of the SR-1 PS motion handling, and I see inordinately harsh detail and some sharpening artifacts.
That would be proof-positive of an intelligent merge.

Still, the problem of motion within the frame is a sticky one with a limited number of potential solutions. The most obvious is to detect differences between frames and not apply the merge to those pixels. Adding additional exposures has potential to provide additional data for effected pixels. Apply Panasonics's expertise with synthetic image augmentation and the results might be quite convincing. Note that convincing is not the same as accurate to the scene or consistent to the photographer's intent. I might expect that small leaves might simply disappear along with suspended droplets.*


Steve

* I tend to shoot my moving water at about 1/8s to 1/15s, at which it is not usual to have motion blur and droplets at apex in the same frame.
04-22-2019, 09:07 AM   #11
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,713
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'll be looking for proof that someone actually bought one. I can only assume there are Panasonic users as brand loyal as Pentax users who have been waiting for years for a full frame body.
I have a close friend who went from Canon 5Diii to a Lumix G9 about a year ago with the lure being the Advanced Depth From Defocus feature. She is VERY interested in the S1 and S1R cameras, despite the cost of available lenses.


Steve
04-22-2019, 09:08 AM   #12
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2017
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 322
Guess I'd question the accuracy of the initial statement in that blog. I certainly don't find pixel-shift "useless for field shooting". I've got plenty of great landscapes taken with pixel shift. You just need to understand that it doesn't work with things moving in the frame. But there are plenty of shooting scenarios that don't involve that.
04-22-2019, 09:16 AM   #13
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
luftfluss's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,432
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
That would be proof-positive of an intelligent merge.

Still, the problem of motion within the frame is a sticky one with a limited number of potential solutions. The most obvious is to detect differences between frames and not apply the merge to those pixels. Adding additional exposures has potential to provide additional data for effected pixels. Apply Panasonics's expertise with synthetic image augmentation and the results might be quite convincing. Note that convincing is not the same as accurate to the scene or consistent to the photographer's intent. I might expect that small leaves might simply disappear along with suspended droplets.*


Steve

* I tend to shoot my moving water at about 1/8s to 1/15s, at which it is not usual to have motion blur and droplets at apex in the same frame.
I'm so happy that I am satisfied with my low-tech Pentax gear and almost-antebellum lenses .

"Computational photography" and "synthetic image augmentation" is really good stuff, though. Eventually we'll be able to have smooth - misty, even - water, sharp spray & foliage, beautifully gentle light, all in a single exposure. Super cool!
04-22-2019, 09:56 AM - 1 Like   #14
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,713
QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Eventually we'll be able to have smooth - misty, even - water, sharp spray & foliage, beautifully gentle light, all in a single exposure. Super cool!
I am holding out for diaphanous pixies and crepuscular rays in-camera.


Steve

(...jumping fish? Yes, jumping fish would be awesome...)
04-22-2019, 10:03 AM   #15
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
UncleVanya's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 15,159
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote

That will be over $4000 CAD. With no lenses. And without the availability of a 15-30 equivalent (yet recommended for landscape) The 24-105 is $1300 and is 4. The 70-200 is also $1700 and is 4.

So essentially we are taking about a camera with over $8k CAD, over $7k USD, with two F4 lenses and no legacy glass? I'm astounded I haven't seen one comment about the lack of available glass for this camera, or the suitability of what's available. The standard kit for pro glass is the above. The only lens I see there that I would consider a pro lens is the 50 1.4 and it's 2,297 USD. And people complained about the DFA*50 1.4 being expensive.

$10,000 for everything available and no 15-30. If Pentax did this, the name calling around the world would be decisive, loud and constant." no lens support".

Panasonic is probably my second favourite camera company, even though I currently don't own one. I regularly purchased them for my digital media courses.

So my first questions is, where are the images that would justify such expense? Given that my K-1 is serious overkill, my feeling is this a a system of interest to only really serious pros in niche markets. There is absolutely nothing it could do that would justify that kind of cost for me personally. I hope they do well, I've always liked Panasonic. But wholey moley.

I fear they've lost their minds.
https://www.leicacamerausa.com/photography/leica-sl/sl-lenses/?

The leica SL glass and the announced Sigma lenses (still not shipping) are part of the native ecosystem for this camera. The Leica glass is expensive... Shudder.!
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
frames, panasonic, pentax, pixel, shift, sony
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pixel shift with pixel artefacts Dericali Pentax K-1 4 07-18-2018 12:57 PM
Lloyd Chambers Prefers Pentax Pixel Shift To Sony's Pixel Shift Fenwoodian Pentax K-1 2 07-16-2018 02:15 PM
SR II on K-1 MKII will offer Dynamic (handheld) Pixel Shift Resolution alpheios Pentax News and Rumors 84 02-22-2018 02:21 PM
Pixel shift motion correction in K-3II? microlight Pentax K-3 23 08-02-2016 02:48 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:43 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top