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05-19-2019, 09:27 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
(...)

And comparing a quarter against the previous year is more robust against anomalies than just comparing against the preceeding quarter.

(...)
Definitely. So did we, you and I.

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
(...)

The really interesting thing here is, what really is the reason behind Sony's -73% drop in profitability? Too much fixed marketing costs compared to sales? Buyers moving to the lower end models?
...or increased rebates or impairment costs (this is the last quarter of the fiscal year) or a combination of many causes.

Whatever it is / they are, it / they hit Fujifilm (-2.5% in sales, -47.5% in operating income) and Canon (-17% in sales, -81.6% in operating income) too.

Fujifilm's explanation is 'Operating income decreased due to advertising, promotion and R&D expenses.'

05-19-2019, 09:55 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
...or increased rebates or impairment costs (this is the last quarter of the fiscal year) or a combination of many causes.
I hope for them it isn't rebates. The whole price adjustment war has just begun and they certainly need to go quite a bit lower. If the current scenario already killed their profits then they have a quick run to the bottom.

They all (not only Sony) sit in a downward spiral where they have not yet seen the floor.
05-19-2019, 11:10 AM   #18
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Personally, if anything, I suspect consumer burn out is happening. Henry's sends me all their latest promotion, I used to be quite interested in the new things coming out. That ended with the A9 and D850. There are cameras out there that could theoretically be everything want, but i don't want them, wouldn't take them at any price. The ads of new releases have been inducing lots of yawns lately. Especially with all the advances seeming to be coming in mirrorless, where I really don't care. The whole industry apart from Pentax seems to have taken a turn for the worse in terms of my buying preferences.

I'm so happy with my current gear, the only thing that could make me want a new camera would be an equipment failure. I've got more than I'll ever need for resolution, 8fps a 23 shot buffer on my K-3. It's come down to, what they're selling, I don't need.

Looking at my friends with their D800s, 5D MK IIIs etc. I'm seeing a lot of that lately.

The latest excited about their gear people I've run into have been excited about saving and buying expensive lenses, not new camera bodies.
05-19-2019, 12:38 PM   #19
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I'm happy that Ricoh is doing reasonably well percentage wise. I know they're the smallest, but as long as they keep doing what their doing, producing equipment that I like, I'm happy.

I was out and about the other day, taking pics of vintage automobilia. As I wandered around taking pics with my K1 and DFA 100 Macro...I thought how fast and precise my AF was working. Not much focus hunting, just aim, hit the shutter button and there it was... the image...bang on sharp.

I'm also impressed with my new old stock, Ricoh GR ll. I think this camera came out originally around 2015 or something, uses the K5 sensor, etc...so not the latest and greatest...but boy does it work well.

Awhile ago, I was using my K5 (bought new 2011) with my Sigma 150-500 (bought 2013) taking pics of American White Pelicans. There I was ...slowly panning alongside these slow flying big birds...locking the focus into their eye, using the slower burst....knocking off a few shots....good shots, IMO...btw.

Again impressed with what my ancient equipment can do. It maybe that my standards are lower, as to what good , sharp photography constitutes ...

I dunno...I don't think I need any more 'improvement' in my camera equipment.. What they do now, impresses the heck out of me.

I'm really not in the market for anything new...but the funny thing is, every so often I find that there seems to be just one more lens I need to get.

05-19-2019, 02:03 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
You're wasting your time. People are going to believe what they want to believe and no amount of documentation or facts will change that.


"Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts" economist Henry Rosovsky
You're the one not paying attention to the facts here, Winder - the 73 percent drop in profitability.

Cheerleading has a habit of doing that.

05-19-2019, 02:14 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Not all markets can afford the latest and greatest. I was talking to guy who teaches photography in Atlanta and his school just bought a bunch of A7II bodies at a discounted rate for students to use. They have a boat load of adapters to use just about any lens from any system. There is still a market for these cameras and I would guess that Sony still has inventory to move. In many ways the A7II is still a better camera than the Canon RP.
And in many ways the A7II is a 6 year old camera that lags the RP in certain areas, particularly in video and auto focus. Certainly those are probably not important for students, but they are reasons that people look at newer MILCs instead of some of the original models.

Honestly, I have no idea how Canon and Nikon's entries into that market are going to effect Sony. I can't think that it will help them any, but maybe it won't hurt them either. I don't think we will see the full impact of Canon and Nikon's releases till they have more complete lens line ups, which is coming pretty quickly for Canon. Overall, the MILC market is certainly going to be more competitive which should make for better prices for consumers and that could hurt the bottom lines of all involved.
05-19-2019, 02:17 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
You're the one not paying attention to the facts here, Winder - the 73 percent drop in profitability.

Cheerleading has a habit of doing that.
What did I say that was contrary to the facts?

---------- Post added 05-19-19 at 04:24 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
And in many ways the A7II is a 6 year old camera that lags the RP in certain areas, particularly in video and auto focus. Certainly those are probably not important for students, but they are reasons that people look at newer MILCs instead of some of the original models.

Honestly, I have no idea how Canon and Nikon's entries into that market are going to effect Sony. I can't think that it will help them any, but maybe it won't hurt them either. I don't think we will see the full impact of Canon and Nikon's releases till they have more complete lens line ups, which is coming pretty quickly for Canon. Overall, the MILC market is certainly going to be more competitive which should make for better prices for consumers and that could hurt the bottom lines of all involved.
Since Sony makes most of the sensors, its good for Sony. Its good for me because Sony need competition. I would have no problem switching to Nikon or Panasonic once the lens line-ups are filled out and I actually had a reason. If Sony will add a 100mm F/1.4 GM I think my lens buying would be finished.

05-20-2019, 02:04 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Since Sony makes most of the sensors, its good for Sony.
Actually the broader shift to DSLM is a catastrophy for Sony's sensor division.

They already had to downsize substantially in the collapsing ILC sensor business and their quarterly report stated that this downsizing still was not fast enough. That was before Canon and Nikon started DSLM and thus started real fast shrinking volumes.

Sony's sensor business needs unit volume sold by camera makers to increase. But it is falling faster and faster. Replacing 3 APSC DSLRs with 1 APSC DSLM isnt helping them. The sensor business has little to gain from more and more expensive but tiny volume camera sales.

If it wasnt for the growing smartphone sensors Sony's imaging sensor business probably would have been shut down already.
05-20-2019, 02:28 AM   #24
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Sony Semiconductor report on a 'significant increase in sales of image sensors for mobile products' and a 'significant decrease in sales of camera modules' (the latter being camera modules for smartphones, I presume).

As a result the sales of Sony Semiconductors grew by 3.45% in FY 2018 and their operating income increased by 19.5% when expunging FY 2017 operating income from non-recurring elements (gain resulting from the sales of the shares in a manufacturing subsidiary, gain resulting from the sale of manufacturing equipment, insurance recoveries related to the Kumamoto earthquakes).
05-20-2019, 03:09 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
What did I say that was contrary to the facts?

---------- Post added 05-19-19 at 04:24 PM ----------



Since Sony makes most of the sensors, its good for Sony. Its good for me because Sony need competition. I would have no problem switching to Nikon or Panasonic once the lens line-ups are filled out and I actually had a reason. If Sony will add a 100mm F/1.4 GM I think my lens buying would be finished.
Isn't Sony's sensor division separate at this point from Sony's camera division? I know that the profit goes into the same overall company, but I didn't think that sensor sales to Nikon helped their camera division. And Canon and Panasonic make their own sensors, not?
05-20-2019, 03:31 AM   #26
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Sony Semiconductors selling sensors to Canon, Hasselblad, Fujifilm, Nikon, Olympus, Phase One, Ricoh and more is helping the camera division in the sense that this larger client base helps recoup development and investment costs, thus lowering unit costs, and speeds up the learning curve.

Canon manufacture sensors but purchase their sensors other than APS-C and 24x36 from Sony.

Panasonic transferred their sensor business to a joint-venture with TowerJazz in 2014. They hold a 49% stake in the joint-venture, TowerJazz Panasonic Semiconductor Company Ltd., and are committed to purchase a certain number of sensors from the joint-venture in the framework of a long-term, recently extended agreement.
05-20-2019, 04:37 AM   #27
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I don't mind reading statistics and trying to understand what hides behind some numbers and indicators the companies reveal about their economics. As Aaron Levenstein said “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.”

I prefer bikinis to statistics, so any relevant shot might raise my interest to this thread again...
05-20-2019, 05:13 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Sony Semiconductors selling sensors to Canon, Hasselblad, Fujifilm, Nikon, Olympus, Phase One, Ricoh and more is helping the camera division in the sense that this larger client base helps recoup development and investment costs, thus lowering unit costs, and speeds up the learning curve.

Canon manufacture sensors but purchase their sensors other than APS-C and 24x36 from Sony.

Panasonic transferred their sensor business to a joint-venture with TowerJazz in 2014. They hold a 49% stake in the joint-venture, TowerJazz Panasonic Semiconductor Company Ltd., and are committed to purchase a certain number of sensors from the joint-venture in the framework of a long-term, recently extended agreement.
Sure.

It just feels a bit like the arguments about the relationship between Olympus Photography unit and their medical division. Certainly they are under the same company and funds for one help the other, but the camera division does need to turn a profit apart from the semi conductor division.
05-20-2019, 05:38 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
(...) the camera division does need to turn a profit apart from the semi conductor division.
...and it does, at least has done until now, and a nice one at that: Sony Imaging Products & Solutions had the second highest Return on Invested Capital (ROIC) in FY2017 (behind Music) and FY2018 (behind Game and Network Services): 33% and 37.5% respectively.

Source: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/18q4_supplement.pdf page 7.
05-20-2019, 08:11 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Isn't Sony's sensor division separate at this point from Sony's camera division? I know that the profit goes into the same overall company, but I didn't think that sensor sales to Nikon helped their camera division. And Canon and Panasonic make their own sensors, not?
.

Sony needs volume so they can spread the R&D cost out as much as possible. One reason that Sony (and Panasonic) push video features so far is that they also make 4K & 8K displays. Even though the division that makes displays is different from the division that makes cameras, they are linked and they need each other. The success of one is important to the other. The more profitable Sony semi-conductor is the more they can invest in cutting edge sensor technology that will probably come to market first in a Sony branded camera. This will help keep the Sony cameras a generation ahead of the competition.

Panasonic has potential to rival Sony. They have a partnership with Fuji for sensor development and both of those companies have pretty substantial resources.
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