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06-12-2019, 01:21 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinWE Quote
Yet they can't compete with the big boys.
Something is off with those numbers. Most likely how much money is appropriated towards Pentax cameras.

A High Powered Mover is more than a dollar sign.
Most of the Ricoh numbers are made up by office equipment and other stuff. Photography is just a footnote in their annual report.

06-12-2019, 01:30 PM - 1 Like   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinWE Quote
Yet they can't compete with the big boys.
Something is off with those numbers. Most likely how much money is appropriated towards Pentax cameras.


A High Powered Mover is more than a dollar sign.
I think they compete as well as they want to compete. Pentax is a niche brand. Ricoh most likely has no appetite for a huge share of the market. Even if they grew the brand 10% year on year, they'd still be a small player. It's a fine balance between keeping your shareholders happy and keeping the customers happy. Most of us are very happy customers, so they must be doing something right. Sure - there are things they can do better.

But, let's speculate. If you don't think Ricoh is the right sort of owner for Pentax, who do you suggest? You'll need a big Japanese company with deep pockets and something to gain out of owning a well known brand of optical devices. I'd love to hear your suggestions.
06-12-2019, 08:52 PM - 5 Likes   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
I think they compete as well as they want to compete. Pentax is a niche brand. Ricoh most likely has no appetite for a huge share of the market. Even if they grew the brand 10% year on year, they'd still be a small player. It's a fine balance between keeping your shareholders happy and keeping the customers happy. Most of us are very happy customers, so they must be doing something right. Sure - there are things they can do better.

But, let's speculate. If you don't think Ricoh is the right sort of owner for Pentax, who do you suggest? You'll need a big Japanese company with deep pockets and something to gain out of owning a well known brand of optical devices. I'd love to hear your suggestions.
At this point when it comes to sales of advanced amateur/pro camera equipment, and I include Canikon sales too... from what I understand sales aren't what they used to be ....and possibly will never be.

I was very happy when Ricoh bought Pentax from Hoya and I believe Ricoh has been good for Pentax. Pentax is surviving and as you say is a niche brand, which is ok for me. I hope Ricoh keeps developing and cranking out Pentax equipment and I hope they continue to make the equipment at the current, high standard they do.

I'm a very long term customer of Pentax, bought my first Pentax..new... an S1a in 1968, which I still have and it still works. Of course that was back when Pentax was the 'Canon' of fine camera equipment, meaning at the, or close to the top of the total sales.

I could bemoan as to how the mighty have fallen since those heady days of Pentax being the sales leader, but I'm not.

Pentax has evolved to where it is now and I tell you...walking around with my K1, D FA Pentax 100 F 2.8 Macro/ 28-105 lenses last week while on holiday on the Alberta prairies...taking pics of everything from vintage cars, 'portraits' of my young grandson in low available indoor light, old architectural buildings, disinterested cattle, etc...I found my K1 and those lenses that I took with me on our travels...a marvel.

A marvel to me, in how fast the AF worked, the superb image quality and the natural ergonomics of my K1 with battery grip. The phrase that pops into my brain when I handle my K1...is something out of the 1960's sportscar magazines I used to read..when they would say about a car's controls...'everything falls readily to hand..'..and with the K1...it does.

So to sum up...what more can an avid, old guy photographer like me want ? Nothing really...my Pentax digital works very well for me...and I think my standards are more than adequate.

I'm happy where Pentax has landed in the world of photography. They seem to be surviving nicely, albeit at a slower pace than the big wheels. In some respects they are a 'secret' known only to Pentaxians ...and I kind of like being part of a secret society.

Les
06-12-2019, 09:25 PM - 1 Like   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
At this point when it comes to sales of advanced amateur/pro camera equipment, and I include Canikon sales too... from what I understand sales aren't what they used to be ....and possibly will never be.

I was very happy when Ricoh bought Pentax from Hoya and I believe Ricoh has been good for Pentax. Pentax is surviving and as you say is a niche brand, which is ok for me. I hope Ricoh keeps developing and cranking out Pentax equipment and I hope they continue to make the equipment at the current, high standard they do.

I'm a very long term customer of Pentax, bought my first Pentax..new... an S1a in 1968, which I still have and it still works. Of course that was back when Pentax was the 'Canon' of fine camera equipment, meaning at the, or close to the top of the total sales.

I could bemoan as to how the mighty have fallen since those heady days of Pentax being the sales leader, but I'm not.

Pentax has evolved to where it is now and I tell you...walking around with my K1, D FA Pentax 100 F 2.8 Macro/ 28-105 lenses last week while on holiday on the Alberta prairies...taking pics of everything from vintage cars, 'portraits' of my young grandson in low available indoor light, old architectural buildings, disinterested cattle, etc...I found my K1 and those lenses that I took with me on our travels...a marvel.

A marvel to me, in how fast the AF worked, the superb image quality and the natural ergonomics of my K1 with battery grip. The phrase that pops into my brain when I handle my K1...is something out of the 1960's sportscar magazines I used to read..when they would say about a car's controls...'everything falls readily to hand..'..and with the K1...it does.

So to sum up...what more can an avid, old guy photographer like me want ? Nothing really...my Pentax digital works very well for me...and I think my standards are more than adequate.

I'm happy where Pentax has landed in the world of photography. They seem to be surviving nicely, albeit at a slower pace than the big wheels. In some respects they are a 'secret' known only to Pentaxians ...and I kind of like being part of a secret society.

Les
If I could like your post twice, I would.

06-12-2019, 11:01 PM   #80
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Does the number of bodies Nikon releases really mean anything?

Take a look at their volume sellers - the 3000 series.
In 2012 the 3200 came out. In 2014 the 3300. 3400 in 2016 and 3500 in 2018. Effectively a "new" body every 2 years. Now take a closer look at them. Image sensor? 32-34 are the same, 35 received a minor update. CPU? 32 had EXPEED 3, all the rest have EXPEED 4. AF system went unchanged as far as I'm aware across all of them - rudimentary 11 points with 1 cross point in the middle.
What are the differences you may ask? Well, they've swapped the GPS module for a Wi-Fi module somewhere along the way. They also did away with the sensor dust removal mechanism. Does any of that warrant 4 "generations" of cameras? I don't think so.

The 5000 series is the same story - the 5300 (released in 2013) is still in production alongside the 5600 (released in 2016) as far as I'm aware. Meaning what? There isn't enough feature content in the 5600 to warrant the full replacement.

I'd suggest using actual new features as a measure of how innovative or stagnant a camera manufacturer is instead of the number of bodies released.
06-13-2019, 06:26 AM - 1 Like   #81
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People don't seem to realize the situation. Pentax is a pet project of Ricoh's owner. When he bought Pentax, "good investment, return on investment etc. weren't mentioned. To paraphrase the owner felt he'd blown it getting out of the DSLR market, and it was a personal goal to get back in.

The owner of Ricoh is kind of like Pentax's sugar daddy. It was more than business decision. It was also an emotional purchase.

I'm not sure there could be better owner fo Pentax at this stage.

After all, in this shrinking market, a lot of owners might just throw in the towel and it's certainly not the time to go crazy with expansion plans.
06-14-2019, 05:09 AM - 3 Likes   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by R. Wethereyet Quote
The Pentax vs Others is very similar to the Ford vs Chevy discussion that you hear around the BBQ every year since 19XX . . . . . .
Dodge!

Ram 3500!

With a Cummins diesel engine and 6 speed manual transmission.

Eats Chevy's and excretes Fords.



I've owned all three, and more over the years. The Dodge has been by far the best.

And I have always been happy with my Pentax cameras and lenses. They always give the results I seek, at a price point much lower than Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, or whatever else is available.

{Full disclosure: The photo above was shot on film, using a Ricoh XR2s 35mm film camera and a Pentax 40-80mm lens.}

06-15-2019, 08:57 AM   #83
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According to rumours, a new Nikon mirrorless is about to hit the shelves. Real soon. Any day now.

Nikon reportedly launching mid-price mirrorless camera this year | TechRadar
06-15-2019, 04:40 PM - 2 Likes   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
According to rumours, a new Nikon mirrorless is about to hit the shelves. Real soon. Any day now.

Nikon reportedly launching mid-price mirrorless camera this year | TechRadar
I'm so not excited.
06-16-2019, 09:20 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Not at all. They do compete with the big boys.

With AF.s, Pixel Shift and astro-tracer, the big boys can't compete with Pentax. It's all about how you frame the statement.

But when they bought Pentax the price for the kind of presence the other companies have was 1.6 billion. That's a lot to gamble on something that might not even work out.
Pentax is a company that got way too conservative. They hired a high powered CEO who claimed he could save the company, but they paid him way to much. He ended up with so much in stock options he sold the company to Hoya, who were basically a liquidator. By the end of the Hoya era, the company was a shell of it's former self. Ricoh is trying to find the way to clean up the damage. But the price they paid was pocket change to them.

Yes, they compete with everyone in the market but they do not keep pace. Yes, they have introduced a few innovations, but that doesn't change their standing among the big boys. Are you telling me Pentax has become a major player? Maybe I missed something?

I'm not knocking Pentax, as I am a long time user going way back to my B&W classes in High School. I just call them like I see them. I will never make excuses for anyone or anything.
l'll leave that to the "die hards".

I hope Pentax keeps marching forward and bringing us bigger and better things every year. I'm waiting to upgrade, so I'm hoping this anniversary thing comes with some good news.

Last edited by kevinWE; 06-16-2019 at 09:28 AM.
06-16-2019, 09:59 AM - 1 Like   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinWE Quote
I'm not knocking Pentax, as I am a long time user going way back to my B&W classes in High School. I just call them like I see them. I will never make excuses for anyone or anything.
Yet here you are basically excusing Nikon and Canon for not implementing pixel shift, astro tracer or IBIS. By refusing to even mention their deficiencies. You call them as you see them, but you only see what you have. It is fairly typical of people who criticize Pentax that they don't know other cameras companies enough to understand what's different. And they don't use the features in Pentax that would help them appreciate the Pentax advantage.

If you're calling them as you see them, you need to see more. People like myself who are exploiting the more relevant aspects of their cameras also call them as they see them. I have taken hundreds of Pixel shifted image, and depend on IBIS and I would never write that I can do what I do with a Canon or a Nikon. But hey, I just calls them as I sees them.

Pentax isn't behind, it's has emphasizes different values. And in those areas it's emphasized it's ahead of the game. if you can't see that you're just looking in the wrong place, and honestly, we don't need to know that.

Over 80 Pixel shifted images in this folder alone, none of which can be matched by a current Nikon or Canon. Maybe if you look, you'll see things differently.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149541448@N08/albums/72157686383848284

If you don't know what you have, you may as well sell. You've had an opportunity to explore Pentax, and if you don't do what it excels at, you're better off with something that excels at the kinds of things you need. No sweat off our backs, one way or the other.

Last edited by normhead; 06-16-2019 at 10:08 AM.
06-16-2019, 10:23 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinWE Quote
Yet they can't compete with the big boys.
Something is off with those numbers. Most likely how much money is appropriated towards Pentax cameras.


A High Powered Mover is more than a dollar sign.
Ricoh doesn't appear to be investing much into the Pentax brand. Maybe someone with the time will post a time line of Full Frame product announcements and release dates showing the bodies and lenses that Ricoh has developed without the Tamron re-badge zooms. The Pentax K-1 MK2 was released before the first D-FA* lens. We might see a K-1 MK3 body before we see the D-FA* 85mm.


I'm not knocking the Tamron glass. I would love to see the Tamron SP line of lenses in K-mount. Those SP lenses are all very good lenses and would give K-mount users some much needed options.
06-16-2019, 01:29 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm so not excited.
If the Canon EOS RP is anything to go by, the "affordable" full frame Nikon mirrorless could be just another meh moment. The RP may be cheaper than the R but it is still serious money. And it seems like Canon disabled some features (like 30fps video) to stop it from eating into sales of the R. Rather cynical, that one.
06-16-2019, 02:19 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by kevinWE Quote
Yes, they compete with everyone in the market but they do not keep pace. Yes, they have introduced a few innovations, but that doesn't change their standing among the big boys. Are you telling me Pentax has become a major player? Maybe I missed something?
Are you familiar with auto racing? Several years ago, after a really exciting lap in NASCAR, one of the announcers said something like "We saw more lead changes in the past lap than we have seen in the past 3 Formula One races". That statement was both true and misleading. Formula One largely focuses on technology - each team makes their own cars, and invariably one team has cars better than the others; their best driver will win the 'pole', and if there are no major mistakes, he will lead the entire race. NASCAR largely focuses on competition - there are only a few brands, and before the season their Technology Center comes with an approved version of each car with the intention that they will perform virtually the same; also they have other rules designed to 'bunch the field together'. The result is that even a minor slip - such as an extra second in a pit stop, or missing the optimal path around the track by a few inches - can result in several passes.

The camera world has always been more like Formula One than like NASCAR; once a brand has more customers than another, reversing their positions is very difficult, mainly because of the importance of lens mount. When I purchased my first Pentax in 1979, Pentax was a dominant brand, but they slipped not once, but twice; I believe the most important slip was in how they went to AF - I believe history will show that Canon's abrupt change to the EF-mount totally rewrote the rules; how the change to digital was handled also did not help Pentax. Perhaps you can blame long-since retired Asahi management for Pentax's current market position, but not current Ricoh management for not pulling a rabbit out of the hat and magically switching positions with Canon.
06-16-2019, 03:07 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Are you familiar with auto racing? Several years ago, after a really exciting lap in NASCAR, one of the announcers said something like "We saw more lead changes in the past lap than we have seen in the past 3 Formula One races". That statement was both true and misleading. Formula One largely focuses on technology - each team makes their own cars, and invariably one team has cars better than the others; their best driver will win the 'pole', and if there are no major mistakes, he will lead the entire race. NASCAR largely focuses on competition - there are only a few brands, and before the season their Technology Center comes with an approved version of each car with the intention that they will perform virtually the same; also they have other rules designed to 'bunch the field together'. The result is that even a minor slip - such as an extra second in a pit stop, or missing the optimal path around the track by a few inches - can result in several passes.

The camera world has always been more like Formula One than like NASCAR; once a brand has more customers than another, reversing their positions is very difficult, mainly because of the importance of lens mount. When I purchased my first Pentax in 1979, Pentax was a dominant brand, but they slipped not once, but twice; I believe the most important slip was in how they went to AF - I believe history will show that Canon's abrupt change to the EF-mount totally rewrote the rules; how the change to digital was handled also did not help Pentax. Perhaps you can blame long-since retired Asahi management for Pentax's current market position, but not current Ricoh management for not pulling a rabbit out of the hat and magically switching positions with Canon.
As I said, I call them like I see them. Pentax hasn't been a major mover since forever, it doesn't mean the brand is bad. It just what it is. I will always buy into Pentax as long as they keep pushing gear out.

Analogies are funny.
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