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06-18-2019, 05:21 AM - 3 Likes   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If you would read the posts you are responding to, you would see that the subject of discussion is market share, not sales. Sales volume is down across the board. Sales volume is a subject that has already been beaten to death.
?

You asked in response to Normhead for proof that Pentax increased its share, and you have now been given it.

Again, just because you did not learn that at DPR or Canon Rumours or whatever other places you have bookmarked is really not our problem.

06-18-2019, 06:05 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the K-1 MK II was the only new camera and it was more of a refresh than a brand new product. If anything, it is surprising that Ricoh held a consistent market share in this situation.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Ricoh announced the Pentax K-1 Mark II in FY2017, not FY2018. The Pentax announcements in FY2018 were the HD D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW, HD DA★ 11-18mm f/2.8 ED DC AW and HD FA 35mm f/2.
You don't sell announcements. Only released products generate sales.
06-18-2019, 07:04 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
You don't sell announcements. Only released products generate sales.
Except for those who see the announcement and start saving then pre-order.

Many commit their money the day of the announcement.
06-18-2019, 08:20 PM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
You don't sell announcements. Only released products generate sales.
The manufacturer invoices the goods and books their sale when they leave its factory. Cameras and lenses aren't usually shipped overnight by plane.

06-19-2019, 02:49 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If you would read the posts you are responding to, you would see that the subject of discussion is market share, not sales. Sales volume is down across the board. Sales volume is a subject that has already been beaten to death.

---------- Post added 06-18-19 at 05:37 AM ----------



Lenses are only going to get bigger. With manufacturers developing for 100MP full frame sensors and users obsessed with optical perfection, lenses will only get more optical correction and more glass. The new Sigma 40mm F/1.4 ART and Panasonic 50mm F/1.4 are massive lenses relative to previous lens designs.


For Canon, I think the EF mount is dead. Canon is heavily invested in video and the EVF is king for video. I agree that over the next 10 years RF will dominate the release cycles for Canon. Canon has done a lot of work on a hybrid OVF to try and merge the technologies together and it appears that Canon doesn't view the hybrid OVF as a viable option. If Canon could have integrated the hybrid OVF into their current DSLR line-up, I think they would have and saved all that R&D money they now have to spend developing and supporting a new mount.
I think the graph that Clackers shared has market share data in it. And while it shows Ricoh growth, it is still just above 1 percent which isn't great.
06-19-2019, 06:01 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the graph that Clackers shared has market share data in it. And while it shows Ricoh growth, it is still just above 1 percent which isn't great.
When everyone else is shrinking... define great.

Given Canon was -24% that's a 25% better than Canon.
06-19-2019, 07:56 AM - 2 Likes   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
When everyone else is shrinking... define great.

Given Canon was -24% that's a 25% better than Canon.
I don't know the answer to that. What is Ricoh shooting for? 2 percent of the market? 5 percent? I think it is clear that they are satisfied for the time being with single digits, but as to what their short term and long term goals are, I am not totally clear. At the same time, you could have 80 percent of the market but actually be losing money because you are maintaining market share by selling items at a loss. That would be significantly more problematic.
06-19-2019, 08:02 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't know the answer to that. What is Ricoh shooting for? 2 percent of the market? 5 percent? I think it is clear that they are satisfied for the time being with single digits, but as to what their short term and long term goals are, I am not totally clear. At the same time, you could have 80 percent of the market but actually be losing money because you are maintaining market share by selling items at a loss. That would be significantly more problematic.
I think the more important thing here is they could be gaining market share, and still selling fewer cameras, because it's a smaller market. In fact that's almost certainly the case.

06-19-2019, 09:39 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the graph that Clackers shared has market share data in it. And while it shows Ricoh growth, it is still just above 1 percent which isn't great.
When I was running my custom B&W lab, my sales wouldn't even have rated as a blip on the total photofinishing market in Canada but I made a nice enough income to live quite comfortably. The focus on market share is a bit of a red herring brought on by the go big or go home attitude that has taken hold over the past couple of decades.
Market share isn't important, what is important is creating enough income to keep the business operating, and that number will vary from company to company.
Leica had close to zero market share from the late 1960s onwards, but survived because market share isn't really all that important.

---------- Post added 06-19-19 at 10:41 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't know the answer to that. What is Ricoh shooting for? 2 percent of the market? 5 percent? I think it is clear that they are satisfied for the time being with single digits, but as to what their short term and long term goals are, I am not totally clear. At the same time, you could have 80 percent of the market but actually be losing money because you are maintaining market share by selling items at a loss. That would be significantly more problematic.
Right.
Hello General Motors and Chrysler from 10 years ago.
Great market share, but still had to be bailed out by our governments.
06-19-2019, 09:53 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
When I was running my custom B&W lab, my sales wouldn't even have rated as a blip on the total photofinishing market in Canada but I made a nice enough income to live quite comfortably. The focus on market share is a bit of a red herring brought on by the go big or go home attitude that has taken hold over the past couple of decades.
Market share isn't important, what is important is creating enough income to keep the business operating, and that number will vary from company to company.
Leica had close to zero market share from the late 1960s onwards, but survived because market share isn't really all that important.

(...)
How much were your (fixed) R&D costs when you were running your custom B&W lab?

In a high-tech business sales might not be important but gross margin is. Leica have low sales (they are more than two times bigger than Ricoh Imaging though) but high prices and gross margin. That helps pay the bill of fixed costs.
06-19-2019, 10:26 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
How much were your (fixed) R&D costs when you were running your custom B&W lab?
Not germane.

QuoteQuote:
In a high-tech business sales might not be important but gross margin is. Leica have low sales (they are more than two times bigger than Ricoh Imaging though) but high prices and gross margin. That helps pay the bill of fixed costs.
True enough, and it was high prices and cachet value that kept Leica in business while Pentax was frittering away their legacy with low prices and small margins that kept them from doing the R&D necessary to keep them at the top of the market.
My own business, of course, had virtually zero R&D costs which allowed for quite high margins. This was typical of the lab industry. The end user had minimal R&D costs as these were borne by the equipment manufacturers. We paid for it within the cost of equipment.

This is the way businesses that use manufactured equipment run. Construction workers aren't doing the R&D on pneumatic nailers, they just buy a finished product and build houses.
Professional photographers aren't doing the R&D on their cameras, they are just buying based on features, benefits and perceived need.
Delivery drivers don't design their trucks, they just buy them off the lot based on the model of choice.

As end users we do some research, though not the same type that the manufacturers do, but we are rarely involved in product development. We research features and benefits of finished products. Manufacturers create features that give end users benefits, and their research is devoted to feature creation.

I was obliquely involved in the product development for the APS film system and DX encoding system, though I didn't know it at the time. The best that most end users can hope for is to fill out a few marketing surveys that might end up getting onto the development flow chart for a product line.
06-19-2019, 08:59 PM - 1 Like   #42
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I think both Canon and Nikon are seeding bodies and lenses everywhere (planting more user base) in order to cull their old mount system in about 5 years. They looked really funny since they are now being dragged by Sony and others in the MILC hype.

Last edited by wed7; 06-19-2019 at 10:06 PM.
06-19-2019, 09:57 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't know the answer to that. What is Ricoh shooting for? 2 percent of the market? 5 percent? I think it is clear that they are satisfied for the time being with single digits, but as to what their short term and long term goals are, I am not totally clear. At the same time, you could have 80 percent of the market but actually be losing money because you are maintaining market share by selling items at a loss. That would be significantly more problematic.
Yep. Nikon, Sony, Canon and Fuji are defying business sense by investing in new platforms and technology and marketing while global sales are falling.

Canon think the market will go from sixteen million cameras in 2014 to bottom out at maybe five to six million in two years time (source: Canon sees a grim future for the camera business: the digital camera market is likely to shrink by half in the next two years - Photo Rumors )

Nearly everyone will be using phones, just professionals and very enthusiastic amateurs will be buying cameras, it's back to the age of film.

Every company will have to find a way to weather the storm, each has a different starting point. The ones with the most employees, the biggest production and the most facilities are arguably the poorest equipped to deal with it.
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