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07-20-2019, 03:22 PM - 3 Likes   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
As far as I'm concerned , I put cost on one side of the balance, and value of improved camera specs on the other side:
We all do, but each talks from the perspective of shooting different things.

I shoot wildlife and I want a body that can keep up with the fast and unexpected moments. I also want the best glass available and I have the renting option so that I don't have to worry about spending 10.000$ on a dedicated lens. For example I paid 40$ to rent for 2 days the Cnon RP and Canon 28-70mm f2L lens. And a 300mm f2.8 costs 50$ for 2 days to rent on weekends.

I also shoot corporate events and portraits. For both I use fast lenses and I shoot between f1.2 and f2.8 most of the times and between f4 and f5.6 if I shoot a small group of people on a stage for example. Eye af is good enough these days so that I don't have to worry about getting the shot in focus at f1.4-f2.8.

For travel and landscape I probably won't bother with fast lenses or with fps and buffer and switching systems won't get me any sort of improvements, especially if the camera that I would have to replace would be a Pentax K1 II. But I understand also the reasons of the ones waiting to get the A7R IV as a replacement of the current system or as a simple upgrade from an older Sony camera.

---------- Post added 07-20-19 at 10:44 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
People are pulling out pretty specific uses of a camera in this thread. It may be that birding is the most important thing for a camera to be able to do, but if your focus is on birding and the 26 megapixels you get with your crop on this camera, you are going to be cheaper getting a lower megapixel full frame camera to combine with a 24-ish megapixel APS-C camera for when you need that "reach."

But I really think people over estimate how much of a difference there is between a 20 megapixel image (like the D500 has) and a 24 or 26 megapixel image. There isn't a huge difference in real world settings.

Same with the silent mode. Yes, it is nice to have, but the K-1 shutter is soft enough that it isn't a problem in most settings -- certainly less obtrusive than people taking flash photos with their photos.
Rondec, it's not only about bodies. You invest in a system and the camera it's just a small part in the equation. As I said many times, for me resolution is the last I think in terms of importance. But if I tell this to a photographer who has clients that pay for his large prints, I won't have any sort of argument if I want to convince him that resolution isn't important.

Sure, K1 has a soft enough shutter, until you go to shoot a play in a theater and people next to you start to tell you to shut your camera (it happened to me and the second time I've rented a mirrorless). Yes, people are pulling out specific uses because none of us are shooting the same thing under the same conditions. And some of us also get paid from time to time for our images. Why people who want some specific features are welcomed with things like:

- K1 has a soft enough shutter
- K3 has 8fps and it's cheap and has extra reach
- 60mp is not bringing any advantage over a 36 or 42mp camera
- etc.

Why some people are not willing to get into consideration other people opinions just because they don't deal with the same requirements in their photography activity? Why people willing to invest in expensive cameras/lenses are welcomed with "it's too expensive", "I don't see better images taken with the new camera", "you like 4 shot pixel resolution, how about 16", etc.? Why is it so hard to understand that maybe those people didn't payed a lot of money for better images, but they paid the money to get the same images but easier and faster? These things I don't understand...


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-20-2019 at 04:09 PM.
07-20-2019, 04:13 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Why is it so hard to understand that maybe those people didn't payed a lot of money for better images, but they paid the money to get the same images but easier and faster? That I don't understand...
Easier and faster isn't always better, there is a point where the relative value of improvement diminishes to a level below the cost. Economist and marketers call that maturity of a technology and replacement market.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-20-2019 at 04:21 PM.
07-20-2019, 04:13 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is nothing wrong with this camera, but there isn't anything particularly right about it either. It just feels like the end of the line when it comes to useful improvements. You want 40 megapixels, how about 60? You like 4 shot pixel resolution, how about 16? We'll try to improve ergonomics a bit and claim that auto focus is better.

At the same time, image quality isn't really going to be much different -- maybe a hair more resolution compared to older 36 and 42 megapixel models. And I have been told a million times that Sony's current auto focus is awesome or, maybe I should say AWESOME, meaning that I can't really understand why someone shooting an A7 III or A7r 3 is going to want to upgrade. Sony has improved everything and all I can think is "meh."

Since I shoot with Pentax, I can see certain things that Pentax probably does need to do going forward. Maybe a hybrid viewfinder, better video specs, but honestly I would prefer a K1 with better buffer and a little faster frame rate to this nonsense.
Do you find pixel shift a useful feature? Have you used it with good results?



07-20-2019, 06:22 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Do you find pixel shift a useful feature? Have you used it with good results?


In some situations yes, in others no.

07-20-2019, 08:22 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
In some situations yes, in others no.
Pixel shift has some limitations, but under the right circumstances it can rival a 61MP sensor. How about just using a 61MP sensor that works without limitation on movement? With an A7R4 you could crop nearly 50% of your pixels and still have a file the size of a K-1. You could make some rather nice pano's from a crop of a 61MP image. But if you don't need 40 or 60MPs, then you don't need a feature like pixel-shift.

My A9 is only 24MP and I'm pretty happy with that, but I can see a lot of applications for high resolution. Commercial, fashion, photojournalism, landscape, architectural, copy/documentation.... For my work its not exactly a priority. I won't be buying one, but I know people who have already per-ordered. There will be some good deals on the A7r3 very soon.



07-20-2019, 10:27 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
How about just using a 61MP sensor that works without limitation on movement?
The goal of Pentax pixel shift isn't to improve resolution, the goal is to bypass bayer demosaicing in order to avoid false colors, keep the resolution constant regardless of color patterns and reduce noise by after 4 times the amount of light collected by the sensor (pixel shift enhances the quality of shadow recovery). A single 61Mpixel frame can't replace pixel shift. Same for Sony pixel shift, you wouldn't use pixel shift to get more than 61Mpixel, you'd use pixel shift to have constant resolution regardless of color patterns of an image. Also, Sony lenses resolve 35Mpixel max, so the 61Mpixel will be struggling here. Image comparisons between A7R3 and A7R4 show that the A7R4 doesn't show more details in images. The bottleneck is the lens, not the sensor, that's if I needed more resolution I'd avoid the Sony A7R4 and I'd go the medium format route.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-20-2019 at 10:34 PM.
07-20-2019, 10:50 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
We have to wait and see. I can't put a verdict on a camera based on some samples from a beta version of the camera and from some theories, even with the some math included. And as I said, if you're not willing to pay for 61mp due to the above reasons, maybe a studio photographer, a wildlife photographer, a portrait photographer will take advantage of:
- 61mp in a full frame sensor that can shoot at 10fps
- 26mp in crop mode with 10fps to take advantage of the new Sony 200-600mm lens
- pixel shift
- animal and human eye af
- silent shutter
- 4k video

I wouldn't pay for resolution even though the 26mp in crop mode sounds good, but I would pay extra money for the other facilities as long as after I test the camera I end up with the conclusion that it makes my overall shooting experience a better and enjoyable one.

Don't forget that some paid additional 500-550$ to upgrade from K1 to K1 II for a few improvements.
I wouldn't include that pixel shift resolution at all because it's just useless, it needs approx 20 seconds to take pictures, not process but take and process one by one! and then you don't even able to see result in camera! You have to transfer files to computer and use special software to see what you have taken. Imagine some bird will fly between your subject and the lens you will discover it at home after long trip! On top of that, the file size is 2GB!! Guys, 2GB for each file and you have no idea what's in there.

07-20-2019, 11:04 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Easier and faster isn't always better, there is a point where the relative value of improvement diminishes to a level below the cost. Economist and marketers call that maturity of a technology and replacement market.
My clients get the files cropped to 4k resolution so I don't need a camera with a high resolution sensor, but I need a camera that can help me get the job done easier. Also, the birds I'm interested in are quite naughty and I need a fast camera to keep up with their activity. For these reasons alone to me "easier" and "faster" are 2 options that worth paying for and if the system I shoot with doesn't cover my needs, I switch without a blink.

It's even easier to switch because fortunately from a financial point of view this hobby of mine is a self-sustaining one.
07-20-2019, 11:14 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The goal of Pentax pixel shift isn't to improve resolution, the goal is to bypass bayer demosaicing in order to avoid false colors, keep the resolution constant regardless of color patterns and reduce noise by after 4 times the amount of light collected by the sensor (pixel shift enhances the quality of shadow recovery). A single 61Mpixel frame can't replace pixel shift. Same for Sony pixel shift, you wouldn't use pixel shift to get more than 61Mpixel, you'd use pixel shift to have constant resolution regardless of color patterns of an image. Also, Sony lenses resolve 35Mpixel max, so the 61Mpixel will be struggling here. Image comparisons between A7R3 and A7R4 show that the A7R4 doesn't show more details in images. The bottleneck is the lens, not the sensor, that's if I needed more resolution I'd avoid the Sony A7R4 and I'd go the medium format route.

I believe that the G Master line is designed with a minimum of 50MP. In fact, I think I read that many of them are capable of 100MP. If that’s true, it seems like it’s plenty for the new body. It’s good to see that they are pushing boundaries and innovating. Sony’s lenses are really impressive performers. And they provide plenty of competition to keep other manufacturers on their toes.
07-20-2019, 11:14 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Also, the birds I'm interested in are quite naughty and I need a fast camera to keep up with their activity.
I see your point. For birds, Canon developed solutions solutions for that long ago with the 7D and 1Dx, when Sony was still sucking milk on baby bottle, perhaps you can find a second hand body and use the Canon lenses you already have. No need to switch to Sony
07-20-2019, 11:25 PM - 1 Like   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I see your point. For birds, Canon developed solutions solutions for that long ago with the 7D and 1Dx, when Sony was still sucking milk on baby bottle, perhaps you can find a second hand body and use the Canon lenses you already have. No need to switch to Sony
Am I correctly understanding that you just really don’t like Sony?
07-20-2019, 11:30 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lev Quote
I wouldn't include that pixel shift resolution at all because it's just useless, it needs approx 20 seconds to take pictures, not process but take and process one by one! and then you don't even able to see result in camera! You have to transfer files to computer and use special software to see what you have taken. Imagine some bird will fly between your subject and the lens you will discover it at home after long trip! On top of that, the file size is 2GB!! Guys, 2GB for each file and you have no idea what's in there.
Aha. I remember similar "arguments" when Pentax introduced pixel shift. Yet, it became popular among some with specific needs. Now it became again useless because another company took this feature a little further... What if I shoot interiors/architecture instead of landscapes?

When I see a new camera, I try to put on paper the pros and cons after some tests in real situations that I shoot. This means that I rent it several times for a few days with different lenses. In the first 2 days I try to get familiar with it and see how is the overall shooting experience and how it feels in my hands. Then I'm renting it again to test it in some specific situations. And I do that with lots of cameras from different manufactureres because it's fun and renting is cheap in my country. The "problem" with your statement is that this camera is for now in the hands of just a few internet influencers. There aren't users with one or two months experience in shooting with this camera, but already we see verdicts. What about waiting for users reviews or for us to put our hands on this camera and see how useless are some features?

For me for example, pixel shift from any camera is useless because of what I shoot. GPS, astrotracer and video are again useless features because I don't shoot landscapes or video. But to others these features were the reasons that bought their cameras.

---------- Post added 07-21-19 at 06:32 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I see your point. For birds, Canon developed solutions solutions for that long ago with the 7D and 1Dx, when Sony was still sucking milk on baby bottle, perhaps you can find a second hand body and use the Canon lenses you already have. No need to switch to Sony
I never say never. As I said, this hobby is self sustaining so I keep my eyes open.
07-21-2019, 12:07 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Aha. I remember similar "arguments" when Pentax introduced pixel shift. Yet, it became popular among some with specific needs. Now it became again useless because another company took this feature a little further... What if I shoot interiors/architecture instead of landscapes?

When I see a new camera, I try to put on paper the pros and cons after some tests in real situations that I shoot. This means that I rent it several times for a few days with different lenses. In the first 2 days I try to get familiar with it and see how is the overall shooting experience and how it feels in my hands. Then I'm renting it again to test it in some specific situations. And I do that with lots of cameras from different manufactureres because it's fun and renting is cheap in my country. The "problem" with your statement is that this camera is for now in the hands of just a few internet influencers. There aren't users with one or two months experience in shooting with this camera, but already we see verdicts. What about waiting for users reviews or for us to put our hands on this camera and see how useless are some features?

For me for example, pixel shift from any camera is useless because of what I shoot. GPS, astrotracer and video are again useless features because I don't shoot landscapes or video. But to others these features were the reasons that bought their cameras.

---------- Post added 07-21-19 at 06:32 AM ----------



I never say never. As I said, this hobby is self sustaining so I keep my eyes open.
I don't think it's similar. People were complain about its usebility shooting handheld. Hoping that the final version will show you 2gb file in camera is just an illusion. If you are not useing pixel shift that's fine but there are people who does.

Anyway, good luck to those who will spend $3,500 in Sony's FF body
07-21-2019, 12:20 AM - 1 Like   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lev Quote
I don't think it's similar. People were complain about its usebility shooting handheld. Hoping that the final version will show you 2gb file in camera is just an illusion. If you are not useing pixel shift that's fine but there are people who does.

Anyway, good luck to those who will spend $3,500 in Sony's FF body
It's not necessarily about Sony, although Sony released A7R IV at 3500$ that started this "debate". It's more about what makes people spend more than 3000$ on a camera. I'm sure that there are Pentaxians willing to pay 3000+$ on a Pentax camera that have similar performance with D850 for example. Some paid 2500$ by buying K1 and upgraded it to K1 II a year or two later.
07-21-2019, 12:49 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
It's not necessarily about Sony, although Sony released A7R IV at 3500$ that started this "debate". It's more about what makes people spend more than 3000$ on a camera. I'm sure that there are Pentaxians willing to pay 3000+$ on a Pentax camera that have similar performance with D850 for example. Some paid 2500$ by buying K1 and upgraded it to K1 II a year or two later.
while that might be true about D850 kind camera, it might be true. But what you keep on saying about that upgrade, it is not like that, and you know it too. first of all you have been using your K-1 for a good while before that upgrade. AND if one got that upgrade, it is still cheaper than buy second camera(read upgraded model at premium prize), even if you sold your first camera. That is one thing.
Then again you could just buy K-1 m2, and they could be had new for 1700€ at best, even at here in Finland. Now we are talking about small increase of performance, and that prizeis good for what one did get. And upgrade your present gear not just buying new camera is ecological thing too.

But this is least of consern to lot of people...
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