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07-22-2019, 11:58 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The 36MP sensor in the K-1 is a traditional CMOS sensor. The 42MP and 61MP sensors found in the last two generations of Sony cameras have been BSI sensors which are a good bit more expensive to produce. Several years ago I read that a BSI sensor costs around 20% more than a traditional CMOS sensor. A stacked BSI sensor like what is found in the A9 was almost 2x the price of a traditional CMOS sensor of the same resolution.
That's about right. Although I have never seen any difference between an image taken with a front illuminated sensor and an image taken with a back illuminated sensor. I was always wonder what the point of using back illuminated sensor if that makes no difference in images.

---------- Post added 22-07-19 at 21:00 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Why would anybody buy THAT thing?
Photographers who want to see small hairs under the nose of female models look like a mustache?


Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-22-2019 at 12:09 PM.
07-22-2019, 04:07 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's about right. Although I have never seen any difference between an image taken with a front illuminated sensor and an image taken with a back illuminated sensor. I was always wonder what the point of using back illuminated sensor if that makes no difference in images...
Back illumination benefits increase as pixel size decreases. High-megapixel tiny-sensor smartphones would be even noiser without BSI.

36mp FF sensors don't see much improvement from BSI, because each pixel is huge compared to a smartphone.
07-22-2019, 04:45 PM - 2 Likes   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's about right. Although I have never seen any difference between an image taken with a front illuminated sensor and an image taken with a back illuminated sensor. I was always wonder what the point of using back illuminated sensor if that makes no difference in images.

---------- Post added 22-07-19 at 21:00 ----------


Photographers who want to see small hairs under the nose of female models look like a mustache?
BSI gives shorter route of the leads between pixel and the electronics on the sensor. This mean less heat generated on the sensor and faster readout speed. This give the possibility of higher frame rate and higher specification on video. It becomes extra important on mirrorless cameras that are 100% live view.
07-22-2019, 08:23 PM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm not totally sure how much of an advantage that Sony really has. They definitely turn out more (and sometimes better) sensors than anyone else and then their ILC department feels obligated to build a camera for every one of them, but I think the biggest advantage Sony has is that many of its customers believe strongly in the Sony propaganda -- somewhat similar to how Fuji users believe that X Trans sensors are intrinsically better than Bayer sensors.

It's nice to have a base of customers who will buy whatever new thing you turn out. That's the sort of advantage that most brands would love to have.
I think their main advantage is the reliance of their competitors on their sensor technologies, so they’re always one step ahead of them.
The big question is whether they can maintain their success if this unfair advantage is removed, or would their camera business ends up suffering the same fate as their VAIOs.


Last edited by Zooland; 07-23-2019 at 02:24 AM.
07-23-2019, 05:35 PM - 1 Like   #155
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I think the biggest problem I have with the way that they continue to crank out camera in this whole 'mirrorless war' is how frequently these cameras come out. I think its easier to swallow if they were more affordable (in that $1000 or so would be affordable, as any camera is going to cost some). I have been shooting/using my K-1/K-3 combo since 2016 and I don't think I've come close to squeezing all of the potential out of it...

I do really think the features are enticing... when the large group of YouTube reviewers have said that they can't think of anything to really change, it does feel that way. I do wonder what it might be like to not really have to concentrate on settings, and focus almost solely on composition (since it does seem like it truly does do the work for you). BUT the a7R(2014), a7Rii (2015), a7Riii (2017), and now a7Riv being released in 2019, means that the next camera will be out in 2 years. I remember the a7 (Jan) + a7ii (Nov) getting released literally in the same year - 2014. It just feels like a short shelf-life for something that cost $3500 (not counting the huge increase in lenses, and SD cards that though fast also cost upwards of 70-100per). It's quite the hit, no matter how amazing the camera will be. It just makes it difficult and makes me hesitant to use that money, when something new will come out later for that same price... with my K-1 sitting there in the wing...

I think I'll keep that money (while still a bit jealous of some capabilities) and just wait for whatever small spec increase that Pentax comes out with. If they ever give me something close to the d850 (the K-1 was a d810, with extra features for almost half-price), I will have no more complaints or needs. I continue to think that is the perfect DSLR.
07-23-2019, 07:13 PM - 2 Likes   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by landofcourtness Quote
I think the biggest problem I have with the way that they continue to crank out camera in this whole 'mirrorless war' is how frequently these cameras come out.
Why does that matter? Did you sign a contract to buy a new one every time one is released? If anything the new A7rIV is going to make the A7rIII prices fall and that is an excellent camera. Unless you are someone who just has to have the newest and shiniest camera every one is released, the Sony release cycle is very good for consumers..... or at least those who with patience.
07-24-2019, 02:36 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by landofcourtness Quote
I think the biggest problem I have with the way that they continue to crank out camera in this whole 'mirrorless war' is how frequently these cameras come out. I think its easier to swallow if they were more affordable (in that $1000 or so would be affordable, as any camera is going to cost some). I have been shooting/using my K-1/K-3 combo since 2016 and I don't think I've come close to squeezing all of the potential out of it...

I do really think the features are enticing... when the large group of YouTube reviewers have said that they can't think of anything to really change, it does feel that way. I do wonder what it might be like to not really have to concentrate on settings, and focus almost solely on composition (since it does seem like it truly does do the work for you). BUT the a7R(2014), a7Rii (2015), a7Riii (2017), and now a7Riv being released in 2019, means that the next camera will be out in 2 years. I remember the a7 (Jan) + a7ii (Nov) getting released literally in the same year - 2014. It just feels like a short shelf-life for something that cost $3500 (not counting the huge increase in lenses, and SD cards that though fast also cost upwards of 70-100per). It's quite the hit, no matter how amazing the camera will be. It just makes it difficult and makes me hesitant to use that money, when something new will come out later for that same price... with my K-1 sitting there in the wing...

I think I'll keep that money (while still a bit jealous of some capabilities) and just wait for whatever small spec increase that Pentax comes out with. If they ever give me something close to the d850 (the K-1 was a d810, with extra features for almost half-price), I will have no more complaints or needs. I continue to think that is the perfect DSLR.
Sony does hit a lot of different price points. This just happens to be at the top end. I will say that they haven't invested a whole lot in bringing new cameras and lenses to APS-C shooters.

07-25-2019, 09:19 AM - 2 Likes   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Why does that matter? Did you sign a contract to buy a new one every time one is released? If anything the new A7rIV is going to make the A7rIII prices fall and that is an excellent camera. Unless you are someone who just has to have the newest and shiniest camera every one is released, the Sony release cycle is very good for consumers..... or at least those who with patience.
Exactly.

---------- Post added 07-25-19 at 11:32 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by landofcourtness Quote
I think the biggest problem I have with the way that they continue to crank out camera in this whole 'mirrorless war' is how frequently these cameras come out. I think its easier to swallow if they were more affordable................
Choices. Why would anyone buy a new Porche 911 for $113,300, when a Nissan Versa will get you to your destination for $12,100? Choices allow one to buy what they want. I never buy new electronics. Like Winder said, new models offer choices and help older model prices decline. With patience I was able to buy my low mileage Sony a7III for 17.5% off list, less than a new Pentax K1mII. My a7III is a joy to use with my Pentax and other legacy lenses.

Having few choices would be no fun.

Last edited by jlstrawman; 07-25-2019 at 09:32 AM.
08-05-2019, 12:16 PM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by landofcourtness Quote
I think the biggest problem I have with the way that they continue to crank out camera in this whole 'mirrorless war' is how frequently these cameras come out. I think its easier to swallow if they were more affordable (in that $1000 or so would be affordable, as any camera is going to cost some). I have been shooting/using my K-1/K-3 combo since 2016 and I don't think I've come close to squeezing all of the potential out of it...
There are less customers. Camera companies need to squeeze more cash out of customers to avoid making losses. I've never seen so much marketing push as for Sony cameras now, this is becoming borderline customer harassment.

---------- Post added 05-08-19 at 21:17 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jlstrawman Quote
My a7III is a joy to use with my Pentax and other legacy lenses.
You could still have use a Pentax K1 for the less than an A7III and the K1 would still take more detailed images.
But now, you have a mirrorless camera, that's cool.
08-05-2019, 02:14 PM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
that's cool.
Very cool! Choices are cool.
08-05-2019, 02:54 PM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by jlstrawman Quote
Exactly.

---------- Post added 07-25-19 at 11:32 AM ----------



Choices. Why would anyone buy a new Porche 911 for $113,300, when a Nissan Versa will get you to your destination for $12,100? Choices allow one to buy what they want. I never buy new electronics. Like Winder said, new models offer choices and help older model prices decline. With patience I was able to buy my low mileage Sony a7III for 17.5% off list, less than a new Pentax K1mII. My a7III is a joy to use with my Pentax and other legacy lenses.

Having few choices would be no fun.
I agree with this completely. The options available now provide multiple realistic choices for camera users across the board. I traded in my K3ii last summer for an A7iii because I needed some of the features that Pentax didn’t offer. While I was sad to leave Pentax after so many years, I am really happy to be able to capture the images that I needed with the new body. And, while the glass is really expensive, I have yet to buy or try a Sony lens that has failed to blow my socks off. When I want to use Pentax or other vintage MF lenses, inexpensive adapters make it easy to do so. Now that I’m pretty heavily invested in the Sony system, it would take a serious change in my photography interests that Sony didn’t do well to make a shift. But having new choices in the future makes it possible for me to find what I may need elsewhere. I say keep up the competition so that the tech continues to be refined and to advance.
08-05-2019, 09:12 PM - 1 Like   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by jlstrawman Quote
Very cool! Choices are cool.
I've made the choice to buy a Pentax because the Sony ergonomics are the worse of any camera and the Sony menus as a total mess. I haven't chosen Sony because it's new or cool. I see some customers buy the latest thing being advertised, it's irrational. I've use the Sony A7III and the Pentax K1 together, so I know what the real performance is. I noticed something with the choice of cameras that has in common with being trendy... like laddies buying cool bags and kids going at school who want to have the same latest cool thing as the other kids, it's very low consciousness kinda decisions. Five years ago, if I didn't have a Canon I'd be mocked, but now if I don't have a Sony I'm out socially. That's not choice, that's peer pressure. A friend of mine sold his Pentax, he bought a Sony because it was cool, he doesn't take photos anymore, so I guess Sony didn't help in keeping his passion alive.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-05-2019 at 09:19 PM.
08-05-2019, 10:29 PM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I've made the choice to buy a Pentax because the Sony ergonomics are the worse of any camera and the Sony menus as a total mess. I haven't chosen Sony because it's new or cool. I see some customers buy the latest thing being advertised, it's irrational. I've use the Sony A7III and the Pentax K1 together, so I know what the real performance is. I noticed something with the choice of cameras that has in common with being trendy... like laddies buying cool bags and kids going at school who want to have the same latest cool thing as the other kids, it's very low consciousness kinda decisions. Five years ago, if I didn't have a Canon I'd be mocked, but now if I don't have a Sony I'm out socially. That's not choice, that's peer pressure. A friend of mine sold his Pentax, he bought a Sony because it was cool, he doesn't take photos anymore, so I guess Sony didn't help in keeping his passion alive.
I don’t know where you are that you are feeling social pressure to buy ‘cool’ cameras (that’s a thing?) or being mocked for not having the ‘right’ gear, but you may need to reconsider the company you keep. No one I know gives a rip what I use. It’s the photos that count.
08-05-2019, 10:41 PM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by neokind Quote
I don’t know where you are that you are feeling social pressure to buy ‘cool’ cameras (that’s a thing?) or being mocked for not having the ‘right’ gear, but you may need to reconsider the company you keep. No one I know gives a rip what I use. It’s the photos that count.
Internet forums and dpreview trolls are good examples of what cameras (and camera business) are all about. At the moment, mirrorless is trendy, Sony is supposed to be the must have. I've read user manuals of the Z7, A7RIII, EOS R, GFX50 and X1D: it was rather disappointing relative to what I read how great those models are. Looking through the menus of the Sony, it can't be more confusing and illogical, BUT, I've been told that this is what I should buy... warrrffff

The X1D caught me on something: the number of function is limited to essentials, but it is still possible to do everything in a simple way, although reviewers said the X1D to be inferior UI compared to the GFX50, go figure.

It's all expensive electronics, and the goal of marketers is to make customers switch lens mounts as often as possible, because switch mounts means $$$.

---------- Post added 06-08-19 at 07:51 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by neokind Quote
I traded in my K3ii last summer for an A7iii because I needed some of the features that Pentax didn’t offer.
With that A7III ILC body, Sony got their food in the door of your wallet....

QuoteOriginally posted by neokind Quote
And, while the glass is really expensive, I have yet to buy or try a Sony lens that has failed to blow my socks off.
... and now with the lens Sony just have to drain money from the open wallet. BTW, it's normal that Sony lenses blow your socks off on a full frame 24Mp camera, I had the same effect when moving from a K3 to a Pentax K1. The image quality and subject separation on full frame are greater than they are on apsc.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-05-2019 at 10:51 PM.
08-06-2019, 06:54 AM   #165
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QuoteQuote:
With that A7III ILC body, Sony got their food in the door of your wallet....
They make cameras. I use them. Isn’t their job to make photography gear that I might want to use? I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.


QuoteQuote:
... and now with the lens Sony just have to drain money from the open wallet. BTW, it's normal that Sony lenses blow your socks off on a full frame 24Mp camera, I had the same effect when moving from a K3 to a Pentax K1. The image quality and subject separation on full frame are greater than they are on apsc.
It’s beyond the image quality and subject isolation. Moving to FF was fine, but it’s not those qualities that you mention that I am referencing when I say that the lenses are impressive. Just as the new Pentax 50/1.4 is blowing away its owners with its performance in image quality, AF speed, and accuracy, so also the glass I’ve picked up from Sony is impressive in the same areas. Basically, I suspect that most well-designed modern lenses blow away most older designs with older AF tech, irrespective of the label on the barrel.
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