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07-29-2019, 12:47 AM   #1
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Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge 64%




07-29-2019, 01:49 AM - 1 Like   #2
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The mirrorless problem is that customers who liked mirrorless got into Sony FE mount years ago. So now for the new entrants like Panasonic, Nikon and Canon, it's the hard to dig part of the market left over by Sony. The same problem was for Pentax when they came up with the Pentax K1 too late: a lot of Pentaxians who couldn't wait for a Pentax FF simply switched to Canon or Nikon, so when Ricoh finally decided to make and release the K1, a big part of the sales potential was already gone.
07-29-2019, 02:33 AM - 1 Like   #3
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We have these arguments all of the time.

I think the reality that camera makers are facing is that the "revolutionary" features that MILCs can bring to the table aren't that important to most photographers. Super high frames rates, silent modes, and all sorts of information/focusing helps in the viewfinder actually don't change how an image is shot.

Many of the folks who were strongly interested in MILCs have switched to one of the brands that made them and Canon and Nikon are now trying to claw back users through a heavy investment in MILC tech and new glass. It's going to take heavy investment and at the end of the day, they are only going to have a small percentage of a market that no longer is anywhere near the size of the market five or six years ago.
07-29-2019, 04:28 AM - 2 Likes   #4
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If I was going to buy a MILC right now, it would be Sony without a second thought. Too high of a likelihood Canon or Nikon gives up and leaves you stranded with an abandoned system.

07-29-2019, 04:39 AM - 1 Like   #5
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ILCs have ALWAYS been somewhat of a niche market. If anything, they're more prevalent now than anytime I can remember. But I think they've done what computers did a decade or two ago. They've reached the point where there's no longer a lot of reason to keep upgrading every year or two so the market is shrinking. We're a bit numb to it on here, but for the majority of the population, $500 -$1000, much less $3000, is a LOT of money to spend on a camera. Most people don't care that much about it to make that kind of investment, especially when the cameras in their phones keep getting better and better. What I think MILCs have offered to camera manufacturers is a chance to cross over into video and tap into that market. Sure, DLSRs have been able to do video for quite a while now, but the MILCs that are doing the best seem to be more tailored for video. And like biz engineer said, Canon and Nikon are late to the game in that respect. Right now, the 2 big players are Sony and Panasonic. Recently at my job, we switched from traditional video cameras over to mirrorless and we went with GH5s cameras. A big part of that decision was how well Panasonic dealt with audio. They have a box that plugs into the smart hot shoe that then creates inputs for XLR microphones and all the controls you need to make that work well. The other makers are coming out with something similar, but they're a little late. Plus, they have no track record as to how well they work, whereas Sony and Panasonic have been doing this a while. I don't think Canon or Nikon are going to go under, but they're certainly not going to continue having the exponential kind of growth they've enjoyed since digital cameras came out.
07-29-2019, 07:00 AM   #6
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"With DSLRs set to be obsolete at an accelerating rate"

-- The source is a film maker, not a stills photographer.
07-29-2019, 07:01 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
ILCs have ALWAYS been somewhat of a niche market. If anything, they're more prevalent now than anytime I can remember. But I think they've done what computers did a decade or two ago. They've reached the point where there's no longer a lot of reason to keep upgrading every year or two so the market is shrinking. We're a bit numb to it on here, but for the majority of the population, $500 -$1000, much less $3000, is a LOT of money to spend on a camera. Most people don't care that much about it to make that kind of investment, especially when the cameras in their phones keep getting better and better. What I think MILCs have offered to camera manufacturers is a chance to cross over into video and tap into that market. Sure, DLSRs have been able to do video for quite a while now, but the MILCs that are doing the best seem to be more tailored for video. And like biz engineer said, Canon and Nikon are late to the game in that respect. Right now, the 2 big players are Sony and Panasonic. Recently at my job, we switched from traditional video cameras over to mirrorless and we went with GH5s cameras. A big part of that decision was how well Panasonic dealt with audio. They have a box that plugs into the smart hot shoe that then creates inputs for XLR microphones and all the controls you need to make that work well. The other makers are coming out with something similar, but they're a little late. Plus, they have no track record as to how well they work, whereas Sony and Panasonic have been doing this a while. I don't think Canon or Nikon are going to go under, but they're certainly not going to continue having the exponential kind of growth they've enjoyed since digital cameras came out.
All the manufacturers including Sony and Panasonic have declined over the last five years, TaoMaas.

07-29-2019, 07:29 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
All the manufacturers including Sony and Panasonic have declined over the last five years, TaoMaas.
I haven't really followed it, but I don't doubt that. I just feel like camera technology has evolved to a point where people don't feel the need to upgrade as often as they were so that's slowing things down at the top end and the improved abilities of smart phones are eating up the entry-level sales. I also feel that if there's going to be any growth for these companies, it's likely to come from expanding their video capabilities and bringing in new users that way. I think that's part of what's behind the move to mirrorless cameras. We're living in more of a multi-media world these days and the camera makers are trying to build the tools for that...with varying degrees of success apparently.

07-29-2019, 07:42 AM   #9
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Don't cry too long for Canon, they are still above 6% operating profit in the Imaging Business Unit (operating profit for the entire company is only 4.8%). Almost a third of Imaging is inkjet printers and cameras account for less than 16% of Canon's overall sales. From Canon's presentation to investors, "As for Imaging System, although we saw unit sales of mirrorless cameras grow at a higher rate than the market, sales and profit for the entire business unit declined, due to the impact of DSLR market contraction, particularly for entry-class models. Although the level of profit was low compared with the same period last year, by promoting the optimization of production and sales organizations in line with market changes, profitability did pick up from its bottom in the previous quarter." The linked article in this thread is an example of hysterical overreaction, not supported by the source material it is supposedly based on.
07-29-2019, 07:52 AM   #10
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Im having some holiday time. I was at a small zoo in France yesterday. Really only some family visitors and no large crowds. So there was only one mom with a camera and all others had a smartphone. Try to sell some camera's in this world.....
07-29-2019, 07:54 AM - 1 Like   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kozlok Quote
If I was going to buy a MILC right now, it would be Sony without a second thought.
Fuji for me. I got a chance to play with an XT-2 a couple of weeks ago and I very nearly bought it. As someone who uses film cameras on a regular basis, that thing appealed to my instincts. If I weren't a heavy Pentax user already and I didn't really need full frame or legacy film lens support, Fuji would get my money for sure; mostly for that reason.
07-29-2019, 09:17 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I haven't really followed it, but I don't doubt that. I just feel like camera technology has evolved to a point where people don't feel the need to upgrade as often as they were so that's slowing things down at the top end and the improved abilities of smart phones are eating up the entry-level sales. I also feel that if there's going to be any growth for these companies, it's likely to come from expanding their video capabilities and bringing in new users that way. I think that's part of what's behind the move to mirrorless cameras. We're living in more of a multi-media world these days and the camera makers are trying to build the tools for that...with varying degrees of success apparently.
You are right that camera technology has matured to the point that people don't need to upgrade as often.

However, I doubt the video can bring in many new users.

Smartphones are an even bigger threat to the video camera world than they are to the still camera world. Small-sensor devices are superior for video -- it's easier to read a small sensor extremely fast (and harder to do so with a big sensor). Some smartphones now offer 960 FPS super-slow-motion that no APS-C or FF camera could ever even dream of doing. Small sensor devices are also superior for many action-video genres such as drone and action-sports video -- it's a lot easier to mount a 2.6 ounce Go-Pro on a drone or bike/ski helmet than a 2.6 pound ILC & lens.

For the stills photographer, "good" video features only add expense and compromise such as the added electronics and ports for professional audio or the added constraints on lens designers if they must eliminate focus breathing. Thus, adding video might attract a few new video users but it might also reduce upgrade-purchases by stills photographers that don't want to pay the higher price required for decent video.
07-29-2019, 09:47 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
for the majority of the population, $500 -$1000, much less $3000, is a LOT of money to spend on a camera.
Strangely enough it's not too much to spend on a phone -er multimedia communication device. I won't pay over $100 for my phone, so that leaves me a few $x00 for cameras..right?
07-29-2019, 10:19 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Im having some holiday time. I was at a small zoo in France yesterday. Really only some family visitors and no large crowds. So there was only one mom with a camera and all others had a smartphone. Try to sell some camera's in this world.....
I guess you'd find a different statistic when on the back of a safari Jeep at the Serengeti park. ILC camera now have such a price that they aren't for everyone anymore.
07-29-2019, 10:42 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I guess you'd find a different statistic when on the back of a safari Jeep at the Serengeti park. ILC camera now have such a price that they aren't for everyone anymore.
And many people are not interested in carrying a camera and bag anymore.
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