47MP M4/3 Sensor From Sony

Winder · 09-26-2019, 08:30 AM

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-releases-the-new-47mp-and-8k30p-mft-sensor-fact-sheet/

Looks like M4/3 is alive and well as far as Sony is concerned. High spec sensor. Lets hope Olympus and Panasonic bring cameras with this new sensor to market.

normhead · 09-26-2019, 08:44 AM

Lets hope there are solutions to low light and dynamic range problems first.

Fogel70 · 09-26-2019, 08:59 AM

It looks to be designed for surveillance and industrial applications, so I'm not sure it will be used in consumer cameras.

**BigMackCam** · 09-26-2019, 10:27 AM

I hope that M4/3 survives. Whilst it's not for me, I can see the attraction in terms of size and weight (E-M1X aside), and there's a substantial, committed user base...

Unregistered User · 09-26-2019, 06:55 PM

Still not as fine a pixel pitch as a Pentax Q…

Mistral75 · 09-28-2019, 03:58 AM

Sony IMX492 is a sensor designed for surveillance, factory automation cameras and industrial cameras with 12-bit A/D converters instead of 14-bit or 16-bit in photography sensors.

Besides its aspect ratio is close to 1.5:1 and not 1.33:1 (4/3).

Photohunter · 10-20-2019, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Sony IMX492 is a sensor designed for surveillance, factory automation cameras and industrial cameras with 12-bit A/D converters instead of 14-bit or 16-bit in photography sensors.

Besides its aspect ratio is close to 1.5:1 and not 1.33:1 (4/3).

The reason why Sony is noting the application as industrial and surveillance is of contract issues.
They have probably signed contracts with Panasonic and olympus already.
They hope to sell some more to other markets. See, Sony sets special deals with terms with different camera manufactures because they want to be able to control the market.

Buy setting the applications they can deny any company buy these sensors for camera applications without special terms.

The IMX299 used in the GH5S also lists for industrial/surveillance
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX299CJK_Flyer.pdf

For the 12 bit part. Most m43 sensors are 12bit not 14/16
For example the IMX272 used in GH5/G9 https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX272AQK_Flyer.pdf

So this sensor will probably arrive for the GH6 and in a PDAF version for The E-m1 mkIII

The reason it is of non classical m43 dimensions is that it is a slightly oversized sensor with the corners out of the image circle. In that way they can choose multi aspect ratio without cropping. Both 4/3 and 17:9 in the same sensor.

Mistral75 · 10-21-2019, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Photohunter

(...)

The IMX299 used in the GH5S also lists for industrial/surveillance
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX299CJK_Flyer.pdf

(...).

Originally posted by Sony Semiconductor Solutions:

this product is designed for use in consumer use digital still camera and consumer use camcorder. When using this for another application, Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation does not guarantee the quality and reliability of the product.

as per the flyer you linked.

Photohunter · 10-21-2019, 12:08 PM

Ah my misstake.
For a long time the IMX294 was believed to be the GH5s sensor.

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX294CJK_Flyer.pdf

The PDF for the 299 has not been up for so long. So I guess they made two versions of it.

But you must agree I was right about the rest.

Also. can you post a link to a 4/3" surveillance camera? I have not found a single one. Even though they have marked several 4/3 sensors for that applikation.

Mistral75 · 10-21-2019, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Photohunter

The reason why Sony is noting the application as industrial and surveillance is of contract issues.
They have probably signed contracts with Panasonic and Olympus already.
(...)

Buy setting the applications they can deny any company buy these sensors for camera applications without special terms.
(...)

The above is mere speculation and is contradicted by Sony making the IMX299 available to third parties.

Originally posted by Photohunter

(...)

For the 12 bit part. Most m43 sensors are 12bit not 14/16
For example the IMX272 used in GH5/G9 https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX272AQK_Flyer.pdf

(...)

OK for this one. On the other hand, IMX299, the sensor in Panasonic Lumix DC-GH5S, is 10-bit/12-bit/14-bit.

Originally posted by Photohunter

(...)

So this sensor will probably arrive for the GH6 and in a PDAF version for The E-m1 mkIII

The reason it is of non classical m43 dimensions is that it is a slightly oversized sensor with the corners out of the image circle. In that way they can choose multi aspect ratio without cropping. Both 4/3 and 17:9 in the same sensor.

IMX299, the sensor in Panasonic Lumix DC-GH5S, is multi-aspect too, yet its diagonal is 21.63mm (Type 4/3). IMX492, the sensor this thread is about is bigger: diagonal 23.1mm (Type 1.4).

Photohunter · 10-21-2019, 07:43 PM

Yes speculations. But reasonable speculation. If I were Sony I would also set terms to control the camera market. Some says that is the reason why Panasonic lacks PDAF and Olympus has mediocre video etc. No one can have it all except Sony.

Yes the sensors are available out on the market. And the IMX269 (PEN-F sensor) is found in the Y1 M1 as well. It doesn’t mean that they don’t set terms for the purchases. They might want to see the full spec of the camera first.

The m43 mount is oversized, how much harm can 1.4mm do? The old Panasonic GH2 multiaspect sensor was 23.5 mm GH2: Detailed Diagram of Multi-Aspect Sensor: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
That is even more than 1.4.

I am very sure that we will find a version of imx492 in mft cameras. Hopefully with 14bit (GH5S is the only 14 bit what I know of)

I ask again. How many 4/3” surveillance cameras have you seen? Or type 1.4...
sounds ridiculously to launch a sensor for a market that does not exists. If you find one. I might buy it for fun. My believe is that the majority part will be sold to Panasonic and Olympus and they think that it might not hurt to put it out for other markets and hope for the best.

Winder · 10-21-2019, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Photohunter

Yes speculations. But reasonable speculation. If I were Sony I would also set terms to control the camera market. Some says that is the reason why Panasonic lacks PDAF and Olympus has mediocre video etc. No one can have it all except Sony.

Yes the sensors are available out on the market. And the IMX269 (PEN-F sensor) is found in the Y1 M1 as well. It doesn’t mean that they don’t set terms for the purchases. They might want to see the full spec of the camera first.

The m43 mount is oversized, how much harm can 1.4mm do? The old Panasonic GH2 multiaspect sensor was 23.5 mm GH2: Detailed Diagram of Multi-Aspect Sensor: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
That is even more than 1.4.

I am very sure that we will find a version of imx492 in mft cameras. Hopefully with 14bit (GH5S is the only 14 bit what I know of)

I ask again. How many 4/3” surveillance cameras have you seen? Or type 1.4...
sounds ridiculously to launch a sensor for a market that does not exists. If you find one. I might buy it for fun. My believe is that the majority part will be sold to Panasonic and Olympus and they think that it might not hurt to put it out for other markets and hope for the best.

Panasonic can have PDAF anytime they want it. Panasonic has invested heavily in CDAF and believes they will eventually match PDAF performance without the problems you get with on sensor PDAF. Panasonic is pretty close for most applications. Olympus actually has very good video in the latest bodies. Panasonic is also heavily invested in Tower Jazz who makes some of the sensors for Nikon and probably the S1R. Panasonic is partnered with Fuji on organic sensor development. The Panasonic S1 & S1R are both excellent cameras. Hopefully Panasonic is committed to the L-mount for the long haul and I think they are because they need it for the video platform, but it's going to take 5 years and at least 2 generations of bodies before we see them gain traction IMHO. I'm a fan of the Panasonic S1/S1R, just not the glass at this point.

Photohunter · 10-21-2019, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Panasonic can have PDAF anytime they want it. Panasonic has invested heavily in CDAF and believes they will eventually match PDAF performance without the problems you get with on sensor PDAF. Panasonic is pretty close for most applications. Olympus actually has very good video in the latest bodies. Panasonic is also heavily invested in Tower Jazz who makes some of the sensors for Nikon and probably the S1R. Panasonic is partnered with Fuji on organic sensor development. The Panasonic S1 & S1R are both excellent cameras. Hopefully Panasonic is committed to the L-mount for the long haul and I think they are because they need it for the video platform, but it's going to take 5 years and at least 2 generations of bodies before we see them gain traction IMHO. I'm a fan of the Panasonic S1/S1R, just not the glass at this point.

Do you have any proof of TowerJazz sensors to Nikon (which model) and s1R?

My belief was that Sony was so far ahead in sensor tech that no body could put a TowerJazz sensor in. Not eve. Panasonic who part owns them.
Canan is also far of in development and has always been after.

The new hope is Socle (a Foxconn company) with their “Sharp” 8K m43 sensor.

Mistral75 · 10-22-2019, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Photohunter

(...) My believe is that the majority part will be sold to Panasonic and Olympus and they think that it might not hurt to put it out for other markets and hope for the best.

Don't forget the Sharp 8K Camera. This one needs a sensor too.

Sharp 8K Micro Four Thirds Camera - Prototype First Look and Footage | cinema5D

Photohunter · 10-22-2019, 03:27 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Don't forget the Sharp 8K Camera. This one needs a sensor too.

Sharp 8K Micro Four Thirds Camera - Prototype First Look and Footage | cinema5D

No the Sharp 8K uses a in-house socle sensor (Foxconn)
http://www.socle-tech.com/doc/Sharp_lineup/sharp%20products%20-%20image%20se...and%20cmos.pdf

That is a 17:9 mft sensor. Not multi aspect.

09-26-2019, 08:30 AM	#1
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	47MP M4/3 Sensor From Sony https://www.43rumors.com/sony-releases-the-new-47mp-and-8k30p-mft-sensor-fact-sheet/ Looks like M4/3 is alive and well as far as Sony is concerned. High spec sensor. Lets hope Olympus and Panasonic bring cameras with this new sensor to market.

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09-26-2019, 08:44 AM	#2
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,450	Lets hope there are solutions to low light and dynamic range problems first.

09-26-2019, 08:59 AM	#3
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	It looks to be designed for surveillance and industrial applications, so I'm not sure it will be used in consumer cameras.

09-26-2019, 10:27 AM	#4
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,647	I hope that M4/3 survives. Whilst it's not for me, I can see the attraction in terms of size and weight (E-M1X aside), and there's a substantial, committed user base...

09-26-2019, 06:55 PM	#5
Unregistered User Guest	Still not as fine a pixel pitch as a Pentax Q…

09-28-2019, 03:58 AM	#6
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,526	Sony IMX492 is a sensor designed for surveillance, factory automation cameras and industrial cameras with 12-bit A/D converters instead of 14-bit or 16-bit in photography sensors. Besides its aspect ratio is close to 1.5:1 and not 1.33:1 (4/3).

10-20-2019, 08:10 PM	#7
Photohunter New Member Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5	Originally posted by Mistral75 Sony IMX492 is a sensor designed for surveillance, factory automation cameras and industrial cameras with 12-bit A/D converters instead of 14-bit or 16-bit in photography sensors. Besides its aspect ratio is close to 1.5:1 and not 1.33:1 (4/3). The reason why Sony is noting the application as industrial and surveillance is of contract issues. They have probably signed contracts with Panasonic and olympus already. They hope to sell some more to other markets. See, Sony sets special deals with terms with different camera manufactures because they want to be able to control the market. Buy setting the applications they can deny any company buy these sensors for camera applications without special terms. The IMX299 used in the GH5S also lists for industrial/surveillance https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX299CJK_Flyer.pdf For the 12 bit part. Most m43 sensors are 12bit not 14/16 For example the IMX272 used in GH5/G9 https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX272AQK_Flyer.pdf So this sensor will probably arrive for the GH6 and in a PDAF version for The E-m1 mkIII The reason it is of non classical m43 dimensions is that it is a slightly oversized sensor with the corners out of the image circle. In that way they can choose multi aspect ratio without cropping. Both 4/3 and 17:9 in the same sensor.

10-21-2019, 12:56 AM	#8
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,526	Originally posted by Photohunter (...) The IMX299 used in the GH5S also lists for industrial/surveillance https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX299CJK_Flyer.pdf (...). Originally posted by Sony Semiconductor Solutions: this product is designed for use in consumer use digital still camera and consumer use camcorder. When using this for another application, Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation does not guarantee the quality and reliability of the product. as per the flyer you linked.

10-21-2019, 12:08 PM	#9
Photohunter New Member Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5	Ah my misstake. For a long time the IMX294 was believed to be the GH5s sensor. https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX294CJK_Flyer.pdf The PDF for the 299 has not been up for so long. So I guess they made two versions of it. But you must agree I was right about the rest. Also. can you post a link to a 4/3" surveillance camera? I have not found a single one. Even though they have marked several 4/3 sensors for that applikation.

10-21-2019, 01:48 PM	#10
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,526	Originally posted by Photohunter The reason why Sony is noting the application as industrial and surveillance is of contract issues. They have probably signed contracts with Panasonic and Olympus already. (...) Buy setting the applications they can deny any company buy these sensors for camera applications without special terms. (...) The above is mere speculation and is contradicted by Sony making the IMX299 available to third parties. Originally posted by Photohunter (...) For the 12 bit part. Most m43 sensors are 12bit not 14/16 For example the IMX272 used in GH5/G9 https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX272AQK_Flyer.pdf (...) OK for this one. On the other hand, IMX299, the sensor in Panasonic Lumix DC-GH5S, is 10-bit/12-bit/14-bit. Originally posted by Photohunter (...) So this sensor will probably arrive for the GH6 and in a PDAF version for The E-m1 mkIII The reason it is of non classical m43 dimensions is that it is a slightly oversized sensor with the corners out of the image circle. In that way they can choose multi aspect ratio without cropping. Both 4/3 and 17:9 in the same sensor. IMX299, the sensor in Panasonic Lumix DC-GH5S, is multi-aspect too, yet its diagonal is 21.63mm (Type 4/3). IMX492, the sensor this thread is about is bigger: diagonal 23.1mm (Type 1.4).

10-21-2019, 07:43 PM	#11
Photohunter New Member Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5	Yes speculations. But reasonable speculation. If I were Sony I would also set terms to control the camera market. Some says that is the reason why Panasonic lacks PDAF and Olympus has mediocre video etc. No one can have it all except Sony. Yes the sensors are available out on the market. And the IMX269 (PEN-F sensor) is found in the Y1 M1 as well. It doesn’t mean that they don’t set terms for the purchases. They might want to see the full spec of the camera first. The m43 mount is oversized, how much harm can 1.4mm do? The old Panasonic GH2 multiaspect sensor was 23.5 mm GH2: Detailed Diagram of Multi-Aspect Sensor: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review That is even more than 1.4. I am very sure that we will find a version of imx492 in mft cameras. Hopefully with 14bit (GH5S is the only 14 bit what I know of) I ask again. How many 4/3” surveillance cameras have you seen? Or type 1.4... sounds ridiculously to launch a sensor for a market that does not exists. If you find one. I might buy it for fun. My believe is that the majority part will be sold to Panasonic and Olympus and they think that it might not hurt to put it out for other markets and hope for the best.

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10-21-2019, 09:40 PM	#12
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by Photohunter Yes speculations. But reasonable speculation. If I were Sony I would also set terms to control the camera market. Some says that is the reason why Panasonic lacks PDAF and Olympus has mediocre video etc. No one can have it all except Sony. Yes the sensors are available out on the market. And the IMX269 (PEN-F sensor) is found in the Y1 M1 as well. It doesn’t mean that they don’t set terms for the purchases. They might want to see the full spec of the camera first. The m43 mount is oversized, how much harm can 1.4mm do? The old Panasonic GH2 multiaspect sensor was 23.5 mm GH2: Detailed Diagram of Multi-Aspect Sensor: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review That is even more than 1.4. I am very sure that we will find a version of imx492 in mft cameras. Hopefully with 14bit (GH5S is the only 14 bit what I know of) I ask again. How many 4/3” surveillance cameras have you seen? Or type 1.4... sounds ridiculously to launch a sensor for a market that does not exists. If you find one. I might buy it for fun. My believe is that the majority part will be sold to Panasonic and Olympus and they think that it might not hurt to put it out for other markets and hope for the best. Panasonic can have PDAF anytime they want it. Panasonic has invested heavily in CDAF and believes they will eventually match PDAF performance without the problems you get with on sensor PDAF. Panasonic is pretty close for most applications. Olympus actually has very good video in the latest bodies. Panasonic is also heavily invested in Tower Jazz who makes some of the sensors for Nikon and probably the S1R. Panasonic is partnered with Fuji on organic sensor development. The Panasonic S1 & S1R are both excellent cameras. Hopefully Panasonic is committed to the L-mount for the long haul and I think they are because they need it for the video platform, but it's going to take 5 years and at least 2 generations of bodies before we see them gain traction IMHO. I'm a fan of the Panasonic S1/S1R, just not the glass at this point.

10-21-2019, 10:52 PM	#13
Photohunter New Member Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5	Originally posted by Winder Panasonic can have PDAF anytime they want it. Panasonic has invested heavily in CDAF and believes they will eventually match PDAF performance without the problems you get with on sensor PDAF. Panasonic is pretty close for most applications. Olympus actually has very good video in the latest bodies. Panasonic is also heavily invested in Tower Jazz who makes some of the sensors for Nikon and probably the S1R. Panasonic is partnered with Fuji on organic sensor development. The Panasonic S1 & S1R are both excellent cameras. Hopefully Panasonic is committed to the L-mount for the long haul and I think they are because they need it for the video platform, but it's going to take 5 years and at least 2 generations of bodies before we see them gain traction IMHO. I'm a fan of the Panasonic S1/S1R, just not the glass at this point. Do you have any proof of TowerJazz sensors to Nikon (which model) and s1R? My belief was that Sony was so far ahead in sensor tech that no body could put a TowerJazz sensor in. Not eve. Panasonic who part owns them. Canan is also far of in development and has always been after. The new hope is Socle (a Foxconn company) with their “Sharp” 8K m43 sensor.

10-22-2019, 01:52 AM	#14
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,526	Originally posted by Photohunter (...) My believe is that the majority part will be sold to Panasonic and Olympus and they think that it might not hurt to put it out for other markets and hope for the best. Don't forget the Sharp 8K Camera. This one needs a sensor too. Sharp 8K Micro Four Thirds Camera - Prototype First Look and Footage \| cinema5D

10-22-2019, 03:27 AM	#15
Photohunter New Member Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5	Originally posted by Mistral75 Don't forget the Sharp 8K Camera. This one needs a sensor too. Sharp 8K Micro Four Thirds Camera - Prototype First Look and Footage \| cinema5D No the Sharp 8K uses a in-house socle sensor (Foxconn) http://www.socle-tech.com/doc/Sharp_lineup/sharp%20products%20-%20image%20se...and%20cmos.pdf That is a 17:9 mft sensor. Not multi aspect.