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10-05-2019, 06:21 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Luftluss still makes a very good point, and it's true that if you want to preserve large DOF the M43 sensors work very well. But once the light falls, you end up opening the lens as much as possible because DOF itself is less important than keeping noise down... and I feel that that's the Achilles heel of Olympus.


On top of that, as Rondec says, people seem to assume that, since FF is more expensive (generally) than APS-C, M43 has to be cheaper. Right? Right????
When the Oly E-M1mkII was released at $2000 USD, I just shook my head. Way too much $$.

When the Pentax K-1 was released at $1800 USD, I thought wow, what a bargain!


I can rationalize the cost of the high-end Olympus cameras based on everything they bring to the table outside of the sensor, but I don't know if the market outside of Japan will. In the USA, bigger = better is highly ingrained in our culture.

10-05-2019, 07:57 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Luftluss still makes a very good point, and it's true that if you want to preserve large DOF the M43 sensors work very well. But once the light falls, you end up opening the lens as much as possible because DOF itself is less important than keeping noise down... and I feel that that's the Achilles heel of Olympus.
The higher ISO is a problem M4/3 when compared to the current generation of Sony sensors, but realize that Olympus isn't using the current generation of sensors. When the EM1 Mark 3 comes out I think we will see an improvement.

There is a very large percentage of photographers who use strobes for professional work. I know "natural light" is the trendy thing, but a large percentage of people making money are also controlling light and the background. For that group of photographers m4/3 is an excellent option.

Gavin Hoey is a professional photographer who does great work and uses m4/3.



Obviously he could use what ever camera he wants.


Joe Edelman is another former FF professional shooter who switched over to Olympus m4/3 from Nikon FF. Again, Joe controls his light and usually his backgrounds. Most of the advantages of a FF camera are lost on his type of work.







10-06-2019, 09:40 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
For DR the OMD EM1 Mark III has 12.8EV while my A9 shows 13.3. So on paper the Sony A9 wins, but does it win in real world output?
In terms of real world output, the difference is greater, rather than less. The Dx0mark tests tend to exaggerate m43 performance. M43 files tend to demonstrate finer grain than files from larger sensors, but the colors don't hold up as well. There's at least a stop and a half difference in DR performance between the E-M1X and the Pentax KP, for instance, and probably around a stop difference between the Olympus flagship and the Sony A9 (although that's harder to determine because A99 files are blotchy but the colors are much better).


QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
The EM1X is no doubt a great camera, and it is actually not expensive *at all* compared to the likes of the D5, 1D mark whatever, or A9 (which are the high-speed sport competitors) but... those 3 all have noticeably* better performance at higher ISO levels by virtue of the sensor alone, and they are part of established systems that have been catering to serious sports shooters for a long time, with all the glass required.
That's all true, except for one consideration. While the EM1X is technically a "sports camera," I doubt that more than a very small percentage of those who buy the camera will primarily be shooting sports with it (other than maybe car racing). Even cameras like the D5 and 1DX are probably not primarily used for sports. How many professional sports photographers are there, in any case? My suspicion is that sports cameras are more used to photograph wildlife, and there's every reason that this will be even more true of EM1X. Olympus has a 300 f4 lens that for wildlife photography, especially involving plane trips to places, say, in Africa, makes a huge amount of sense. The Oly 300 f4 provides 600mm FF equivalent in a much small package. It's sharper than any 300mm lens that's ever been seen the light of day, and so what you lose in terms of sensor size, you gain back, at least to some extent, due to the sharpness of the lens. In terms of resolution per ounce, nothing beats this combination for wildlife shooting. It's eminently handholdable, and since both the lens and the camera have stabilization that works in concert, you can easily use the combination without a tripod. In short, for many deep pocket photographers, the EM1X along with the Oly 300 f4 is an ideal wildlife kit for traveling around the world and taking photos of critters. In terms of size and cost, it's a lot more practical than a 1DX combined with a 600 f4 FF lens.
10-06-2019, 10:19 AM   #64
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Also there is the thing about this pro guys shooting with flashes, or more controlled light, that when you have so crafted thing it is more easy to squeese more out of sensor and avoid potholes, like high ISO. Also narrow Dof is not that often needed, especially when you are shooting with flashes, studio ect. Also using those things with bigger format will improve those too but what will be good enough! Is more than that needed. Those questions are good to have..

10-06-2019, 02:14 PM   #65
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I definitely think owners of E-M1 x owners will be doing wildlife
10-06-2019, 03:24 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by shaolen Quote
I definitely think owners of E-M1 x owners will be doing wildlife
Most of the wedding photographers who are shooting with Olympus are using the grip and several of them have upgraded to the 1X. I think you will see most of the professionals who shoot Olympus pick it up. The problem they have is attracting new users to the format.





---------- Post added 10-06-19 at 05:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
In terms of real world output, the difference is greater, rather than less. The Dx0mark tests tend to exaggerate m43 performance. M43 files tend to demonstrate finer grain than files from larger sensors, but the colors don't hold up as well. There's at least a stop and a half difference in DR performance between the E-M1X and the Pentax KP, for instance, and probably around a stop difference between the Olympus flagship and the Sony A9 (although that's harder to determine because A99 files are blotchy but the colors are much better).
I haven't shot with the 1X, but I own the A9 and K-1. Before I had the A9 several of us did a test between the K-1, XT-2, & EM1 MK2 and in prints there wasn't much difference until we got up to 800 ISO. It was either 500pix or Flickr that published its mass picture data. I don't remember the exact percentage, but very few images that people post or print are taken at ISO of 800 or up. Over 90% of the images were ISO 200 or below and at base ISO the differences between the formats is minimal. Especially for web use.
10-06-2019, 04:19 PM   #67
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There is a nice advantage to m43 and wildlife shooters. My Pany 45-150mm kit zoom is miles above my old 55-300mm, and if you can get a 300mm+ lens on M43, you are basically getting a pocket 600mm equiv. The increase in DOF is actually an advantage in wildlife shooting except for the rarest of cases.

10-07-2019, 01:28 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Most of the wedding photographers who are shooting with Olympus are using the grip and several of them have upgraded to the 1X. I think you will see most of the professionals who shoot Olympus pick it up. The problem they have is attracting new users to the format.
Yep, and professional photographers don't really amount to enough to sustain a camera system's R&D (unless you take it slow like Ricoh does). I hope Olympus finds its footing soon.


QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I haven't shot with the 1X, but I own the A9 and K-1. Before I had the A9 several of us did a test between the K-1, XT-2, & EM1 MK2 and in prints there wasn't much difference until we got up to 800 ISO. It was either 500pix or Flickr that published its mass picture data. I don't remember the exact percentage, but very few images that people post or print are taken at ISO of 800 or up. Over 90% of the images were ISO 200 or below and at base ISO the differences between the formats is minimal. Especially for web use.
At least on 500px most popular pictures are either obviously posed macro shots or heavily processed multi-exposure landscapes, so of course that will influence the percentage of base ISO shots. If you stack exposures you also get rid of the dynamic range limitation, so using larger formats is either for specific use cases (i.e. actual low light action shots like concerts, landscape "on the go" when you don't carry a tripod for multiple exposures and have to make do with the DR of the camera in difficult light). Apart from that, or the fact that the larger camera might feel more comfortable, there's really not much that the average user can get out of a sensor larger than a MFT one covered with good glass.
10-07-2019, 03:20 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Most of the wedding photographers who are shooting with Olympus are using the grip and several of them have upgraded to the 1X. I think you will see most of the professionals who shoot Olympus pick it up. The problem they have is attracting new users to the format.





---------- Post added 10-06-19 at 05:30 PM ----------



I haven't shot with the 1X, but I own the A9 and K-1. Before I had the A9 several of us did a test between the K-1, XT-2, & EM1 MK2 and in prints there wasn't much difference until we got up to 800 ISO. It was either 500pix or Flickr that published its mass picture data. I don't remember the exact percentage, but very few images that people post or print are taken at ISO of 800 or up. Over 90% of the images were ISO 200 or below and at base ISO the differences between the formats is minimal. Especially for web use.
You do weddings and even if you don't post the images, surely there is a big chunk of the ceremony and reception photos that are shot in iso 800 and above, not?

I don't post a bunch of high iso images here because they are photos of my kids and not particularly of interest to others, but I certainly take a lot of them. Most any indoor photo is going to hit that mark unless I use flash and outdoor photos get there pretty quickly in the evening or in winter time.

Anyway, as you say, the big issue is that Olympus isn't attracting many new users. The market is declining overall and even new mirrorless cameras like Canon's RP and Nikon's Z aren't selling at the rates their companies had hoped they would. It's just hard for a micro four thirds only maker to stand out in the current market.
10-07-2019, 07:50 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You do weddings and even if you don't post the images, surely there is a big chunk of the ceremony and reception photos that are shot in iso 800 and above, not?

I don't post a bunch of high iso images here because they are photos of my kids and not particularly of interest to others, but I certainly take a lot of them. Most any indoor photo is going to hit that mark unless I use flash and outdoor photos get there pretty quickly in the evening or in winter time.

Anyway, as you say, the big issue is that Olympus isn't attracting many new users. The market is declining overall and even new mirrorless cameras like Canon's RP and Nikon's Z aren't selling at the rates their companies had hoped they would. It's just hard for a micro four thirds only maker to stand out in the current market.
Most wedding photographers that I see are using flash for the reception. The high ISO stuff all most always ends up as B&W where the grain and color shifts aren't much of an issue. As a matter of fact, a lot of clients like the grain in the B&W images. My K-3 with the 31mm LTD was one of my favorite for B&W. I don't know why, but the grain (noise) looked great for my style of processing. I crush my blacks and I don't worry about having some of my highlights blown when shooting B&W.


Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras have the same problem that Sony had 5 years ago. Their technology is not as refined as Sony's and they don't have the native lens line-up. This was the problem that Sony had with its first 2 generations of mirrorless cameras. It's going to take Canon/Nikon/Panasonic a couple of years (generations) to catch up to Sony and honestly the first wave of FF mirorless from Canon/Nikon/Panasonic is really good. Sony's AF is still the difference maker, but the others are gaining ground pretty quick. The A9 is just simply amazing when it comes to AF speed and accuracy.
10-07-2019, 08:25 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Most wedding photographers that I see are using flash for the reception. The high ISO stuff all most always ends up as B&W where the grain and color shifts aren't much of an issue. As a matter of fact, a lot of clients like the grain in the B&W images. My K-3 with the 31mm LTD was one of my favorite for B&W. I don't know why, but the grain (noise) looked great for my style of processing. I crush my blacks and I don't worry about having some of my highlights blown when shooting B&W.


Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras have the same problem that Sony had 5 years ago. Their technology is not as refined as Sony's and they don't have the native lens line-up. This was the problem that Sony had with its first 2 generations of mirrorless cameras. It's going to take Canon/Nikon/Panasonic a couple of years (generations) to catch up to Sony and honestly the first wave of FF mirorless from Canon/Nikon/Panasonic is really good. Sony's AF is still the difference maker, but the others are gaining ground pretty quick. The A9 is just simply amazing when it comes to AF speed and accuracy.
Even using flash, surely you use iso in the 800 to 1600 range? Otherwise your flash images look like they were taken in a coal mine.
10-07-2019, 11:12 AM   #72
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Yeah, before I got my most recent Q7 I almost got a E-pl9
10-16-2019, 12:55 PM   #73
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Two announcements soon.

EM5 mk3.….20mp/4k/phase detect AF are the 3 major upgrades over mk2.same processor as flagships.U$1199.

EPL 10...no leaks on specs that are reliable.
10-17-2019, 08:38 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Two announcements soon.

EM5 mk3.….20mp/4k/phase detect AF are the 3 major upgrades over mk2.same processor as flagships.U$1199.

EPL 10...no leaks on specs that are reliable.
EM5 mk3 soundi almost like OM1 mk2. Perhaps there is upgrade coming at there too..
10-17-2019, 09:18 AM - 1 Like   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
EM5 mk3 soundi almost like OM1 mk2. Perhaps there is upgrade coming at there too..
A new, not yet announced Olympus camera was registered on 8 October 2019 by certification authorities. Internal name is IM019.

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Since its Wi-Fi uses both the 2.4GHz and the 5GHz bands, it's a high-end camera, so possibly the OM-D E-M1 III.
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