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01-28-2020, 09:34 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
One thing about converting digital color to BW is you effectively get lots of "colored filter" options. With BW film, and I assume a BW only sensor, you have to put on a colored filter ( at the expense of absorbing light) to darken the sky or change the rendered tones that different colors produce. A red filter can cost you up to 3 stops of ISO speed. You want to use colored filters with BW often. For example, red and green can reproduce to a similar tone of grey. To separate those tones more you would want to put on a red or green filter. Converting color to BW you get way more than the typical yellow, yellow-green, green and red filters.
You bring up an interesting subject. What is the spectral response of cameras like the M10 Monochrome and how is it imposed?


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01-28-2020, 09:40 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marcel K Quote
Maybe stupid question: if you put your color dslr camera on B&W mode, would you have more pixels at your disposal, because you don’t need red-blue-green? iow would that result that in a 3-fold higher resolution b&w pic vs the color version?
Alas, no.

Although you don't need the red-blue-green color information for a B&W image, you do need every pixel to be sensitive to all the colors in the image to get a full resolution in B&W.

Imagine taking a photo of a black-and-red subject (e.g., a black and red tartan blanket). If the light from a red fiber fell on a green or blue pixel of a standard color sensor, the sensor would not see it and the fiber would look "black." Only 9 million of the 36 million pixels of a K-1 would provide valid brightness information about the fabric. (Pixel shift would fix this by moving the sensor and collect 36 million data points in red.)

Ditto a green-and-black subject (such as dense foliage) or a blue-and-black subject (e.g., bird feathers). If all the pixels can't see all the colors, resolution suffers.
01-28-2020, 10:21 AM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
(Pixel shift would fix this by moving the sensor and collect 36 million data points in red.)
The possible application of pixel shift for monochrome has intrigued me since the feature first came out.


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01-28-2020, 10:35 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
My K1 has a filter where I can change my pix taken in colour to B+W...in camera...or just set up the K1 to take B+W if I wish. I'm assuming you can do that on your M10, although I don't know for sure. On my Ricoh GR ll, I have 3 settings for different types of B+W and I really like this feature on a small camera.

In the end If I were to get a new Leica rangefinder...I would want the option of being able to set the camera for B+W or colour, depending on whatever I wanted at the time. I couldn't see myself buying a camera that would only take B+W, such as the Monochrom.

But I do know the enjoyment in using a Leica Rangefinder. I still love taking my near 70 year old llf out for the occasional spin.
The M10 does support a B&W mode, such that an in-camera jpg is in monochrome, and the LCD shows monochrome, but full color information is still contained in the dng file. I set mine to save in both jpg and dng. The M10 jpg files are quite good, much better than the M9.

HOWEVER, the M10M (monochrome version) has no color filter on the sensor, so it only detects brightness, not color. This results in a higher resolution image with better detail; but of course even the raw (dng) file has no color information.

I find the plain M10 B&W files are fine for me, so I'll pass on the M10M (even if I could afford it).

01-28-2020, 12:42 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Alas, no.

Although you don't need the red-blue-green color information for a B&W image, you do need every pixel to be sensitive to all the colors in the image to get a full resolution in B&W.

Imagine taking a photo of a black-and-red subject (e.g., a black and red tartan blanket). If the light from a red fiber fell on a green or blue pixel of a standard color sensor, the sensor would not see it and the fiber would look "black." Only 9 million of the 36 million pixels of a K-1 would provide valid brightness information about the fabric. (Pixel shift would fix this by moving the sensor and collect 36 million data points in red.)

Ditto a green-and-black subject (such as dense foliage) or a blue-and-black subject (e.g., bird feathers). If all the pixels can't see all the colors, resolution suffers.
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, i forgot that the red blue or green pixels only can detect ‘their own’ color.
01-28-2020, 10:36 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You bring up an interesting subject. What is the spectral response of cameras like the M10 Monochrome and how is it imposed?

Steve
I have no clue.
01-29-2020, 12:26 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Imagine taking a photo of a black-and-red subject (e.g., a black and red tartan blanket). If the light from a red fiber fell on a green or blue pixel of a standard color sensor, the sensor would not see it and the fiber would look "black." Only 9 million of the 36 million pixels of a K-1 would provide valid brightness information about the fabric.
Strictly speaking, that's true; however no account has been taken in our discussions so far of Bayer demosaicing which interpolates to determine the colour of each pixel. Even shooting in raw we don't see the data exactly as it comes off the sensor, but after interpolation has been applied.



QuoteOriginally posted by TomB_tx Quote
The M10 does support a B&W mode, ... HOWEVER, the M10M (monochrome version) has no color filter on the sensor, so it only detects brightness, not color. This results in a higher resolution image with better detail; but of course even the raw (dng) file has no color information.
Not really, the Monochrom has a higher resolution sensor, full stop – 40 megapickles versus 24 for the M10. Lack of Bayer filter and no need for demosaicing makes for less electronic faffing in-camera between click and print and may contribute to a slightly better dynamic range. Early users report smoother tones, but they would, wouldn't they?

Last edited by StiffLegged; 01-29-2020 at 03:41 PM.
01-30-2020, 05:22 AM - 1 Like   #23
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I've been attracted to the Leica world recently..... was even caught by the wife in a camera shop last Tuesday playing with one. I think I could go buy a $2,000 dolar pentax lens now and she would be relieved.

01-30-2020, 05:39 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
I've been attracted to the Leica world recently..... was even caught by the wife in a camera shop last Tuesday playing with one. I think I could go buy a $2,000 dolar pentax lens now and she would be relieved.
nice strategy
01-31-2020, 01:15 AM   #25
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I bought a beaten up M4 and Voigtlander 40/1.4 a couple of years ago, it's a beautiful piece of gear and could be my only film camera if I didn't have a bunch of Pentax SLRs.

Used mint M6 prices have caught up with those of used M9 and the original Monochrom cameras. The BJP found the original Monochrom better in low light and high ISO than the colour version (which was only 18Mp?).

The real barrier with Leica is the lens pricing, some cost as much as (or more than) the cameras! I bought my Voigtlander 40/1.4 for its focal length, the much more reasonable price had absolutely nothing to do with it...

Last edited by johnha; 01-31-2020 at 12:19 PM.
01-31-2020, 11:21 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnha Quote
The real barrier with Leica is the lens pricing, some cost as much as (or more than) the cameras! I bought my Voigtlander 40/1.4 for it's focal length, the much more reasonable price had absolutely nothing to do with it...
Yes, the lens pricing...I have been shooting Soviet glass on my Bessa 3M.


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01-31-2020, 04:57 PM   #27
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Yup, lens pricing. I bought my M4 and 3 Leica M lenses in 1968-69, and no more M lenses for 40 years. In ‘69 also bought a LeicaflexSL and 50 f2 & 135 f2.8 lenses, and no other Leicaflex lenses for 40 years. That’s why when the Pentax MX came out I bought one and added several SMC-M lenses: all cheaper than buying another Leica lens. (But I’ve kept using the Leicas and those few lenses much longer...)
02-01-2020, 06:04 AM   #28
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As a Leicaphile I will do my best to address some of the criticisms and questions that have been raised:


QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
A red filter can cost you up to 3 stops of ISO speed
Not a problem with the admittedly expensive Summilux class lenses, but even in bright daylight a Summicron is perfectly capable of handling a 3 stop loss with aplomb. The real boon with a rangefinder is that you view is unaffected by the filter like it would be on an SLR. But that also makes using a polariser filter somewhat problematic for obvious reasons.


QuoteOriginally posted by Marcel K Quote
Maybe stupid question: if you put your color dslr camera on B&W mode, would you have more pixels at your disposal, because you don’t need red-blue-green?
There is still a lot of interpolation going on. The green channel contains 50% of the lumunance detail with the remaining 50% being divided equally to red/blue channel data. The channel with the most pixels wins when it comes to luminance.


QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Monochrome sensor makes more sense on a medium format camera
Thankfully Phase one make the Achromatic+ line of digital backs, also I recall Hasselblad also have a Monochrome MFDB available. I have said a Monochrome 645Z would be wonderful and would give Pentax another market niche to exploit as Phase and Hassy Monochrome MFDB are very expensive.


QuoteOriginally posted by gofour3 Quote
Buy a used P6x7 or 67 or 67II
Prepare for itemized rebuttal: [1]A Leica M rangefinder is considerably lighter than a Pentax 67 [2] you get more frames on a roll of film and developing can be done conveniently Via a service or by yourself [3] you never need to use mirror lock up, [4]you never need to worry about mirror slap that sounds like someone dropping a heavy coin in a tin bucket.[5] Lens filter sizes are considerably smaller.


QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
2) I don't like the labelled dialed UI of the Leica. The e-dial design of the K-1 is better for working with the full range of exposure settings and for resetting the dials to an auto value as needed (M+green button rules!).

3) I prefer the K-1 body. The Leica body feels like a hold-over from the film era rather than something designed for the human hand.

4) The cost!!!!!!
Ergonomic concerns are different for everyone, and are very relative and subjective things. There are some things I dislike about Leica's UI design, when it comes to Leica the camera is more about the hardware rather than the software. Not to say they don't put some effort in but as always Leica's forte has been design and engineering. Not much can be done about cost though, I do admit that financially, they do ask a lot for such a niche product. Leica is a brand that has been around a very long time, even longer than Pentax and just as long as Schneider & Zeiss. Zeiss products command high prices too, and Schneider optics aren't cheap either. Leica isn't really that expensive when you take a look at high end European optics and photographic equipment.


QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
there's nothing quite like a Leica rangefinder.
No, there simply isn't. But there are plenty of other excellent options if Leica doesn't suit: The Konica Hexar RF is in many ways superior to the Leica M7. The Nikon SP is also an excellent choice, Bessa rangefinders are also very good (though reliability is a continuing issue)


QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
I've been attracted to the Leica world recently
All it takes is to buy one camera with the red dot and down the rabbit hole you will go.


QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You bring up an interesting subject. What is the spectral response of cameras like the M10 Monochrome and how is it imposed?
The monochrom is still equipped with a hot mirror like most DSLRs are, however when converted* to hyperspectral imaging the output in UV and IR is quite breathtaking, You can still use the camera for UV and IR unconverted, but shutter speeds are not in the easily hand holdable range. I do have some examples I'll have to dig up from my archive though my monochrom is unmodified for UV or IR.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnha Quote
I bought a beaten up M4 and Voigtlander 40/1.4 a couple of years ago
Excellent choice, the Leica M4 and M5 are shunned among Leica devotees, the upshot of this is that the price for those models are consistently lower I cannot fathom the why M3,M6,M7 are Venerated but the M4 and M5 are consistently priced lower than the more revered models, Leicaphiles treat the M4 and M5 as if they do not exist.


*Leica does ( or did) offer a service to remove the hot mirror and replace it with glass of equal thickness and optical qualities, at a cost.

Last edited by Digitalis; 02-01-2020 at 06:10 AM.
02-01-2020, 06:35 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
...
The real boon with a rangefinder is that you view is unaffected by the filter like it would be on an SLR.
Let's see. I use to have an Mamiya 7II. And now I have a GSW690III, GW690III, GX617, M9, Wista 45 Rangefinder and a Crown Graphic that also has a rangefinder. And I post pictures using them all. So thanks for telling me the obvious.
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