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08-30-2021, 02:31 PM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Nikon needs 1/3 stop more light to produce the same SNR as Pentax.
1/3 of a stop is not shooting the camera at iso 64
QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
we can even go further and look a the raw file and when they are compared they are both saturating the sensor under 1/3 of a stop difference.
And just as I have quoted above it within 1/3 of a stop that is not equal dropping the camera down to iso 64.

It is also worth noting that at iso 64 with the Nikon uses the same exposure as the Pentax K1II at iso 100 and if we look at the DRP at photons to photo they are basically identical but the Z7ii has more headroom with in the raw file so it can be exposed around 1 stop more than the K1II, so for the same highlight protection you can shoot the Nikon at iso 32

08-30-2021, 02:33 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
For me 5% better is not far better, it's about splitting hairs, but I notice a lot of photographer (and marketing) magnify small things so they look like very big. Now apsc vs full frame or full frame vs medium format, let's talk. I'm not ready to pay 100% of the price of a MILC system for a 5% improvement, 30% to 50% improvement Ok I might be willing to pay for it.
IN photography, twice as good or half as good tend to be the markers. A 10% increase is barely noticeable, 5% not noticeable at all. For some 50% might be worth it. But I'd suggest it's the lower limit for aquiring new gear. As for the Nikon colour thing... hate it. Its personally preference. When my Nikon waterproof shock proof broke, I didn't have it repaired. I didn't like the colour so much, I wouldn't even pay for the postage to have it fixed under warranty.
08-30-2021, 08:48 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
It is also worth noting that at iso 64 with the Nikon uses the same exposure as the Pentax K1II at iso 100 and if we look at the DRP at photons to photo they are basically identical but the Z7ii has more headroom with in the raw file so it can be exposed around 1 stop more than the K1II, so for the same highlight protection you can shoot the Nikon at iso 32
Can you clarify where this is shown? I'm confused since the Pentax K-1 essentially (both models) has nearly perfect ISO accuracy. The Nikon overstates ISO. I struggle to understand how an ISO 46 (Z7ii set to 64) shot would have the same exposure as an ISO 95 (K-1ii set to 100) shot. As for highlight protection - shooting at ISO 70 and exposing for ISO 100 will give more headroom as it underexposes a bit.

I'll admit some confusion in this area. But the sensor difference in score between the older K-1 and the new Z7ii is only 4 points. I'm not sure what the practical impact of all of this is on real photography. But I can say that if it helps make good images for anyone - that's what they should be shooting - just as anyone who can take an EVF or loves Pentax should continue using their DSLR's. Honestly the amount of effort we spend arguing the minutia reminds me to get out and take more photos!
08-30-2021, 10:00 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
IN photography, twice as good or half as good tend to be the markers. A 10% increase is barely noticeable, 5% not noticeable at all. For some 50% might be worth it.
> +30% , +50%, are my thresholds to start considering an upgrade. If less than 30%, I can easily close the small gap by better post processing of raw file. I downloaded test images (raw files from K1, K1 PS, Z7, A7RIV, EOS R5, GFX50S, 645z and GFX100) from imaging-resource site, and I processed them (correct for wb, / camera color profile, and exposure) all with my raw dev. software using same settings, up-sampled all to 144Mpixels, than batch processed by Topaz sharpen AI. I renamed the files A, B, C, D etc... and compared them on same display side by side at 100%. I could figure out the image file one from the GFX100 that had slightly more small details, and I could guess what the K1 PS (Pixel Shift) file was because it was the only one that didn't show any color moiré in any area of the test chart image. All other files (K1, Z7, R5, GFX50S, 645z, and even Sony A7RIV 61Mpix) I couldn't tell what camera was produced the images (even medium format).

---------- Post added 31-08-21 at 07:18 ----------

I could have posted a side/side image comparison and made a poll here, see if people could figure out what camera was used for the 36..50...61Mpixel cameras group (after raw processing + upscale + Topaz AI sharpen), would have been fun, I think.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-30-2021 at 10:18 PM.
08-31-2021, 12:10 AM   #35
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test images are pointless as each manufacture has differeng glass the voit glass is the best ive seen just head on to fred miranda and even fred himself says the 50mm APO is the best he has ever seen the glass is the key to all this
08-31-2021, 12:16 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by andy271 Quote
test images are pointless as each manufacture has differeng glass the voit glass is the best ive seen just head on to fred miranda and even fred himself says the 50mm APO is the best he has ever seen the glass is the key to all this
A big part of glass wonder is placebo effect. Blind tests debunk subjectivity, as most lenses stopped down can't be distinguished by only looking at images without knowing what lens was used. Remain the cases of open apertures, subject separation mostly related to aperture and focal length.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-31-2021 at 01:23 AM.
08-31-2021, 01:46 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
A big part of glass wonder is placebo effect. Blind tests debunk subjectivity, as most lenses stopped down can't be distinguished by only looking at images without knowing what lens was used. Remain the cases of open apertures, subject separation mostly related to aperture and focal length.
There are plenty of Voigtländer 50mm f/2 APO reviews online, with test shots showing centre and corner performance at various apertures, and in fairness the resolution, contrast and lack of aberrations is very impressive. I stop short of complimenting the colour, since - as I keep repeating - this is due not just to the lens, but also the profile used (whether embedded, provided by software, or user created). However, the contrast is excellent from wide open, and all example images in these reviews look nicely saturated. From the brief reading I've done, I'm quite sure Andy's picked up one heck of a lens, and there's every reason to believe it is one of the best 50mm f/2 lenses available in terms of optical performance.

You pay for it, though. At around $1,000 for a manual-focus-only, non-weather-resistant lens with a maximum aperture of f/2, you'd want image quality to be very, very good indeed. Thankfully, it appears to be even better than that, and I suspect it's well worth the money for those that are seeking edge-to-edge sharpness, almost-zero aberrations and smooth out-of-focus rendering from maximum to minimum apertures.

For the same price in Pentax land, the D FA*50/1.4 is faster, has very good auto-focus, all-weather construction, it's sharp and contrasty, and with a suitable profile could provide the same colour rendering as the Voigtländer... but it's also much bigger and heavier, and a casual comparison of various reviews suggests the Voigtländer is "better" optically (I say "better" in quotes, because everyone has different tastes in sharpness and rendering).

As always, the "best" lens is the one that satisfies the individual photographer's requirements and preferences. I think Andy's found his... and let's be honest, we're all excited when we discover a lens that really pleases us


Last edited by BigMackCam; 08-31-2021 at 03:43 AM.
08-31-2021, 02:52 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Can you clarify where this is shown? I'm confused since the Pentax K-1 essentially (both models) has nearly perfect ISO accuracy. The Nikon overstates ISO. I struggle to understand how an ISO 46 (Z7ii set to 64) shot would have the same exposure as an ISO 95 (K-1ii set to 100) shot. As for highlight protection - shooting at ISO 70 and exposing for ISO 100 will give more headroom as it underexposes a bit.

I'll admit some confusion in this area. But the sensor difference in score between the older K-1 and the new Z7ii is only 4 points. I'm not sure what the practical impact of all of this is on real photography. But I can say that if it helps make good images for anyone - that's what they should be shooting - just as anyone who can take an EVF or loves Pentax should continue using their DSLR's. Honestly the amount of effort we spend arguing the minutia reminds me to get out and take more photos!
I wouldn't think they are that different if you shoot RAW. Looking at Photons to Photos graph of DR, the curves lie right on top of each other for the Z7 II and K-1 -- the Z7 II seems to get similar DR (11.37 EV) at iso 80 as the K-1 gets at iso 100 (11.43 EV) and gets an extra 0.2 EV when you drop the iso to 64. I wouldn't think this would be big enough to notice in real world shooting, but I think I'm missing some of the arguments that people are spinning in this thread.

(I think the Z7 II is a very nice camera. I don't happen to like EVFs. I'm just saying that I think post processing should get K-1 images close, assuming they are in focus).
08-31-2021, 04:00 AM   #39
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ive now purchased all the voit lenses and i have done extensive testing for decentering of the lens and they are all perfect this to me is a suprise at how good the quality control is with voit amazing ..rondec i was like you hated EVFs but i have changed my mind and love them i still love my k-1 its a fantastic camera


i keep saying thisa but no body listens the voit even with profiles creates colours i havent seen before the reds are pure red the yellow are different the greens are different


i agree that everyones eyes are different i love my 31mm ltd i love the 77mm ltd i have lecia lenses zeiss the list is endless but the voits have something about them that i havent foundon any of my other lenses


i think allso everyone here will have a different display say ipad 27inch dell eizo nec the list goes on


i think all cameras and lenses are great and most people are happy and proberly dont even test for decentering of a lens but i like perfection which i undersatnd does not exist but the voits are the closest ive seen

i have the lecia APO 50mm and see no difference with the voit this lens isnt cheap


im selling a lot of my lenses but will keep certain ones that i like the look redering of but the voits i havent stopped using since buying them even the way the focus ring turns is very very smooth and accurate
08-31-2021, 04:11 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
A big part of glass wonder is placebo effect. Blind tests debunk subjectivity, as most lenses stopped down can't be distinguished by only looking at images without knowing what lens was used. Remain the cases of open apertures, subject separation mostly related to aperture and focal length.
I swear the 77 gives noticeable "pop" even at f/8, and I'm pretty sure it's mostly due to undercorrected aberrations.
08-31-2021, 04:24 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by andy271 Quote
i keep saying thisa but no body listens the voit even with profiles creates colours i havent seen before the reds are pure red the yellow are different the greens are different
I've been listening, Andy! I've also been trying to convince you - thus far unsuccessfully, it seems - that with proper profiling you unequivocally can get those same colours with any modern DSLR or mirrorless camera and any half-decent lens. You simply have to take a target colour chart reference image with your Z7 + Voigtländer lens, exactly the same shot (in the same lighting) with the other camera and lens, and profile to the Z7 reference image. It works if done properly, I assure you

Of course, no other camera and lens will give you the rendering you're so fond of with the Voigtländers.

Do you have any side-by-side comparison shots so we can see the difference in colour rendering between the two camera + lens combos?

Congratulations on your brace of excellent lenses. Enjoy!

Last edited by BigMackCam; 08-31-2021 at 05:01 AM.
08-31-2021, 10:24 AM - 1 Like   #42
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Voigtlaender lenses are fantastic.
09-01-2021, 03:43 AM   #43
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Yes bigmack i will try and post some on my fliker will need a bit of time as im hectic at the mo but i will post them
09-01-2021, 04:59 AM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Voigtlaender lenses are fantastic.
The Voigtländer SL 125mm f/2.5 APO Lanthar is one of those lenses where I have to remind myself every so often "I do not need this" because I really, really can't afford it. Much like the FA* 200 f/4 macro, I might add...
09-01-2021, 05:05 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
The Voigtländer SL 125mm f/2.5 APO Lanthar is one of those lenses where I have to remind myself every so often "I do not need this" because I really, really can't afford it. Much like the FA* 200 f/4 macro, I might add...
Ah the FA*200 macro... the lens every drools over but no one can afford. If anyone ever feels motivated to send me a birthday present.

---------- Post added 09-01-21 at 08:29 AM ----------

QuoteQuote:
The Nikon overstates ISO. I struggle to understand how an ISO 46 (Z7ii set to 64) shot would have the same exposure as an ISO 95 (K-1ii set to 100) shot. As for highlight protection - shooting at ISO 70 and exposing for ISO 100 will give more headroom as it underexposes a bit.
Exactly, two cameras with virtually the same DR have virtually the same headroom.

If two cameras shoot the same settings at 64 ISO and 100 ISO then the ISO or the two cameras are functionally the same. This is kind of like amps that go to 11.
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