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09-30-2021, 06:51 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
I have done some comparative shooting with multiple devices which had new price differences higher than factor 30x between them.
Both for a landscape shot and a candlelight shot.
Normalized to 8 MPx, which is more than any watching person can resolve at normal viewing distance.

Neither "details" nor "dynamic range" were something anyone of my non-photographer friends judged to advantage of the ILCs involved.

I myself see differences and feel the cheapest camera lost out visibly, but I do think that for "normal" people image quality is a complete non-issue and you do not need a phone costing more than $400 to fulfill 100% of requirements for "normal" watchers for 90% of genres.

What even I myself - who does invest in clunky ILC - will admit is that shooting handheld in very dark places (think of dimly lit caves where you may not use tripods at all) my Xiaomi phone with Samsung sensor clearly won against more current iphones and ILC and that is even with JPG.

One has to be honest about the statistical relevancy of areas where phones really have issues.
Basically that is only long tele and very fast shutter due to moving subject applications.
I would venture to say that of the general population who likes shooting photos more than casually this doesnt represent more than 2% of use cases.


And while I also love fast lenses I do think that the weakness of software simulating shallow DoF with more complex depth maps is not really relevant to 99% of image consumers.
Not the least that is because such compositions are not common even for shallow DoF shooters with ILC. Most samples where people brag about the shallow DoF the subject is very clear cut from everything else and this could have been done in software easily in a phone.

One of my favorite private shallow DoF shots is a phone shot which I like as much as some 50/1.4 and 85/1.2 shots.

On the other hand all this will not stop me from continueing to want to buy ILC.
In a nutshell the drivers here are: a) OVF experience and b) physical buttons and c) nicer bokeh.


All these toys have good reasons to exist.
This is how my experience has been with everyone I share photo’s with, it honestly doesn’t matter which camera took it anymore. In the past the image quality on point and shoots/phones was so bad in the dark it was glaringly obvious as it was all mush. Now you have to really look with the iphone(even better on samsung flagship or others) vs a modern ILC camera, at the 8mp and under resolutions everything is viewed at these days it’s quite hard to see the difference.

It’s why I think viewing at 1:1 on a monitor isn’t a true viewing experience. It’s kind of geeking out on the tech, but when others see it it’s on a 4k or under monitor or printed on something that’s typically lower resolution and they’re standing 5+ feet away. The cropping ability is valuable though for composition. It’s tough to do much of that at 12mp.

Airplay on TV’s is also fantastic for sharing photo’s and videos, so convenient.

---------- Post added 09-30-2021 at 07:06 PM ----------

Looks like 13 is improved. Unless he goes in at 500% which nobody does in real world actually looking at these, it’s pretty tough to tell them apart in a lot of the shots. That’s where we’re at, phones are nipping at the heels of the latest full frame sensors in night scenes handheld.





Last edited by LeeRunge; 09-30-2021 at 07:09 PM.
10-20-2021, 03:22 PM - 1 Like   #32
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My current cell phone is five years old and decided I need to get an upgrade. The battery lasts about two hours and it hasn't gotten security updates in years. So I pre-ordered a Google Pixel 6 Pro. I'm sure I could get by with something a lot less. I could probably have someone replace the battery in my Pixel 1 and use it for quite a while. But, once every five years for a new phone (even an expensive one) isn't so bad.

Really I'm kind of intrigued by the camera features of the new phone. The Pixel 1 still takes reasonably good pictures if you're not printing billboards. But the 6 has triple rear cameras including a 50 MP wide angle, a 48 MP telephoto (4x optical zoom; not entirely sure what that equivalent range is), and a 12MP ultrawide. With all of it tied together with all kinds of processing and AI-based trickery, which Google was pretty good at five years ago with a single camera. We'll see how this does...


The way I look at it, this is my point-and-shoot I'll always have with me (hopefully it fits in my pocket... it's pretty big). And probably a pretty good point-and-shoot at that.
10-20-2021, 06:34 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
My current cell phone is five years old and decided I need to get an upgrade. The battery lasts about two hours and it hasn't gotten security updates in years. So I pre-ordered a Google Pixel 6 Pro. I'm sure I could get by with something a lot less. I could probably have someone replace the battery in my Pixel 1 and use it for quite a while. But, once every five years for a new phone (even an expensive one) isn't so bad.

Really I'm kind of intrigued by the camera features of the new phone. The Pixel 1 still takes reasonably good pictures if you're not printing billboards. But the 6 has triple rear cameras including a 50 MP wide angle, a 48 MP telephoto (4x optical zoom; not entirely sure what that equivalent range is), and a 12MP ultrawide. With all of it tied together with all kinds of processing and AI-based trickery, which Google was pretty good at five years ago with a single camera. We'll see how this does...


The way I look at it, this is my point-and-shoot I'll always have with me (hopefully it fits in my pocket... it's pretty big). And probably a pretty good point-and-shoot at that.
Well said. That’s exactly right.
10-20-2021, 06:58 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
My current cell phone is five years old and decided I need to get an upgrade. The battery lasts about two hours and it hasn't gotten security updates in years. So I pre-ordered a Google Pixel 6 Pro. I'm sure I could get by with something a lot less. I could probably have someone replace the battery in my Pixel 1 and use it for quite a while. But, once every five years for a new phone (even an expensive one) isn't so bad.

Really I'm kind of intrigued by the camera features of the new phone.
Ditto, Pro 6 here too.

10-21-2021, 07:40 AM   #35
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Doing a little digging and back-of-the-napkin calculating, I think that the 4x zoom telephoto lens on the Pixel 6 is something like a 26-104mm equivalent. Wide is 26mm equivalent. Ultrawide is something like 14mm. They make it difficult to figure this out, quoting field of view for some of them, and the telezoom as 4X and "104mm equivalent". With the 48Mp telezoom sensor there should be some room for reasonable cropping for extra zoom.

I'm also curious about how much the camera app lets me customize settings for things like action. Phones are typically like an ILC's green mode, where you'll get terrible action results when the camera picks shutter speeds that are far too slow.

When it arrives in a week or so I'll take some test shots, and compare to similar K-3 Mark III photos. You know, just so the Phones Aren't Real Cameras crowd can strut around and say that if they'd taken any of those photos with a DSLR they'd delete them immediately, while also being amazed that anyone managed to take a picture with a phone at all, what with the crippling ergonomics.
10-21-2021, 08:25 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Doing a little digging and back-of-the-napkin calculating, I think that the 4x zoom telephoto lens on the Pixel 6 is something like a 26-104mm equivalent. Wide is 26mm equivalent. Ultrawide is something like 14mm. They make it difficult to figure this out, quoting field of view for some of them, and the telezoom as 4X and "104mm equivalent". With the 48Mp telezoom sensor there should be some room for reasonable cropping for extra zoom.

I'm also curious about how much the camera app lets me customize settings for things like action. Phones are typically like an ILC's green mode, where you'll get terrible action results when the camera picks shutter speeds that are far too slow.

When it arrives in a week or so I'll take some test shots, and compare to similar K-3 Mark III photos. You know, just so the Phones Aren't Real Cameras crowd can strut around and say that if they'd taken any of those photos with a DSLR they'd delete them immediately, while also being amazed that anyone managed to take a picture with a phone at all, what with the crippling ergonomics.
Those ergonomics are crippling though haha. Seriously that and I do hate not having a viewfinder in the sun will keep cameras around for a while. Honestly all they need to do is bring in those computational techniques and apply them to a full frame sensor and lookout. Even if it was a APS-C crop mode with those results, same thing, I just want the option of smart HDR on my ILC. It’s the same thing I end up doing in post production and it just saves a bunch of time.

I have noticed that I’m working in reverse now with the Z5 tweaking my settings int he EVF to get the look I want then just running it in JPEG and not doing anything after and I’m quite happy with that process. Sort of post processing in reverse on location. Nikon’s latest JPEG engine is really really good imo with it’s look/colors.

K-3 Mark iii is my next camera body to replace my K-3. I still enjoy OVF and it’s still better for wildlife and action unless you have a ton of money for a top level mirrorless that doesn’t have blackout at high frame rate. EVF is great though for set it right first and forget the post processing.
10-22-2021, 05:00 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Those ergonomics are crippling though haha. Seriously that and I do hate not having a viewfinder in the sun will keep cameras around for a while. Honestly all they need to do is bring in those computational techniques and apply them to a full frame sensor and lookout. Even if it was a APS-C crop mode with those results, same thing, I just want the option of smart HDR on my ILC. It’s the same thing I end up doing in post production and it just saves a bunch of time.

I have noticed that I’m working in reverse now with the Z5 tweaking my settings int he EVF to get the look I want then just running it in JPEG and not doing anything after and I’m quite happy with that process. Sort of post processing in reverse on location. Nikon’s latest JPEG engine is really really good imo with it’s look/colors.

K-3 Mark iii is my next camera body to replace my K-3. I still enjoy OVF and it’s still better for wildlife and action unless you have a ton of money for a top level mirrorless that doesn’t have blackout at high frame rate. EVF is great though for set it right first and forget the post processing.
I agree that the viewfinder is extremely nice, even necessary, for many shots. But then again, people love their GR series cameras with no viewfinder at all.

I don't know that I could ever get used to not doing anything in post. The AI would have to be really good, automatically straightening horizons, pulling up shadows, knowing I exposed to not clip highlights, cropping for content, etc. I suppose that's plausible, but someone is going to have to step up and put real processing power and dedicated soft/firmware in a camera like the Pixel or iPhone has.

I would appreciate a HDR super-RAW file out of an ILC that more easily lets you pick realistic/wild and other various options. It's a fair amount of work to import 3 or 5 RAW files to the HDR converter of your choice and then tweak and then export. Or use the in-camera jpg-only HDR and live with the small handful of presets.

You'll love the Mark III. I've barely touched my old K-3 II since getting one. It's a huge step up for moving subjects. And low light. And general usability.

10-22-2021, 05:19 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I agree that the viewfinder is extremely nice, even necessary, for many shots. But then again, people love their GR series cameras with no viewfinder at all.
It's not the lack of viewfinder I find challenging with smartphones - it's the lack of physical controls and having to perform "finger gymnastics" to select exposure point, lock exposure, set focus point, hit the shutter "button" etc. - not to mention adjusting ISO & shutter speed if shooting in "Pro" mode. Doing all that stuff on screen leaves me cold, TBH. Even so, I really like having a capable camera with me at all times, and the HDR capabilities are excellent (so, too, the seemingly infinite depth-of-field for city and landscape shots). I'm definitely a smartphone convert, though not as a replacement for my DSLR / mirrorless gear...
10-22-2021, 05:33 AM - 2 Likes   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I agree that the viewfinder is extremely nice, even necessary, for many shots. But then again, people love their GR series cameras with no viewfinder at all.

I don't know that I could ever get used to not doing anything in post. The AI would have to be really good, automatically straightening horizons, pulling up shadows, knowing I exposed to not clip highlights, cropping for content, etc. I suppose that's plausible, but someone is going to have to step up and put real processing power and dedicated soft/firmware in a camera like the Pixel or iPhone has.

I would appreciate a HDR super-RAW file out of an ILC that more easily lets you pick realistic/wild and other various options. It's a fair amount of work to import 3 or 5 RAW files to the HDR converter of your choice and then tweak and then export. Or use the in-camera jpg-only HDR and live with the small handful of presets.

You'll love the Mark III. I've barely touched my old K-3 II since getting one. It's a huge step up for moving subjects. And low light. And general usability.
The EVF in my Z5 really changed my mind for the “pre-process” mindset. It’s so easy to fine tune shadows and highlights up front, so no need for post. And you can tweak all the color settings in camera and see the result, also saving time by just doing it up front and then no need to import/edit/export. It’s just done. And you can transfer in real time to your smartphone as you shoot if you wish, although i find that just clutters up the photo’s folder. I actually still find it much faster to use the lightning/usb-c sd reader rather than wifi, takes a quick second to plug in and pop in the card, faster than wifi by far imo.

I’m looking forward to the mark iii. I need to replace my dead SDM 16-50 as well.

---------- Post added 10-22-2021 at 05:36 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
It's not the lack of viewfinder I find challenging with smartphones - it's the lack of physical controls and having to perform "finger gymnastics" to select exposure point, lock exposure, set focus point, hit the shutter "button" etc. - not to mention adjusting ISO & shutter speed if shooting in "Pro" mode. Doing all that stuff on screen leaves me cold, TBH. Even so, I really like having a capable camera with me at all times, and the HDR capabilities are excellent (so, too, the seemingly infinite depth-of-field for city and landscape shots). I'm definitely a smartphone convert, though not as a replacement for my DSLR / mirrorless gear...
It’s pretty sweet that we have as much capability at all times as we do now in these smartphones. They get solid results and in most cases with no “I wish I had my DSLR” resentment. It’s still more fun to use a dedicated camera though with all the controls, it’s just more pleasant.

They need to get that computational stuff into ILC’s though, they really do. Nothing outlandish, but the highlight and shadow capability is just so good on smartphones, and the night mode.
10-22-2021, 06:29 AM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
It's not the lack of viewfinder I find challenging with smartphones - it's the lack of physical controls and having to perform "finger gymnastics" to select exposure point, lock exposure, set focus point, hit the shutter "button" etc. - not to mention adjusting ISO & shutter speed if shooting in "Pro" mode. Doing all that stuff on screen leaves me cold, TBH. Even so, I really like having a capable camera with me at all times, and the HDR capabilities are excellent (so, too, the seemingly infinite depth-of-field for city and landscape shots). I'm definitely a smartphone convert, though not as a replacement for my DSLR / mirrorless gear...
Not a replacement for the DSLR, but it handles everything in the tiers below that. When the GR III came out I was intrigued, but then I tried to come up with a use case where it was preferred over the phone and the DSLR and I couldn't. The phone will be with me almost all the time, the Pixel 6 will have a wider selection of focal lengths, it will have all the Google AI goodness baked in, and it's connected to the internet almost all the time.


And for those who will say "image quality", two years ago I made a 14" photo book from pictures of a trip to Germany and Austria. Even with phones of 2015-2019 vintage I interleaved many, many phone shots with K-3 II pictures and nobody who'd ever view that book would ever say the image quality suffered because of a phone; they wouldn't even know which was which. I do, and I intentionally picked print sizes and photos to downplay any phone weaknesses. But they're all very usable in my contexts. The 2021 phone will be all that much better.

For me there's no reason to spend hundreds or thousand of dollars on a camera below a DSLR, the modern phone camera is more than adequate.
10-22-2021, 08:30 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Not a replacement for the DSLR, but it handles everything in the tiers below that. When the GR III came out I was intrigued, but then I tried to come up with a use case where it was preferred over the phone and the DSLR and I couldn't. The phone will be with me almost all the time, the Pixel 6 will have a wider selection of focal lengths, it will have all the Google AI goodness baked in, and it's connected to the internet almost all the time.


And for those who will say "image quality", two years ago I made a 14" photo book from pictures of a trip to Germany and Austria. Even with phones of 2015-2019 vintage I interleaved many, many phone shots with K-3 II pictures and nobody who'd ever view that book would ever say the image quality suffered because of a phone; they wouldn't even know which was which. I do, and I intentionally picked print sizes and photos to downplay any phone weaknesses. But they're all very usable in my contexts. The 2021 phone will be all that much better.

For me there's no reason to spend hundreds or thousand of dollars on a camera below a DSLR, the modern phone camera is more than adequate.
Hi ThorSanchez

Might I know what is the use case for a DSLR for you? What is it that your DSLR can do but not the phone? Just curious.

Also I dont know if I am right but isnt GR3 waterproof? Underwater shooting is one area where point and shoots still thrive.


Best

Last edited by brainwave; 10-22-2021 at 08:58 AM.
10-22-2021, 08:55 AM - 2 Likes   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
Hi ThorSanchez

Might I know what is the use case for a DSLR for you? What is it that your DSLR can do but not the phone? Just curious.

Best
Things like these. Sports. So far a cell phone hasn't been able to capture photos of a soccer player 75 yards away at 1/1250th shutter speed. Kid running and jumping at me on the spur of the moment, in sharp focus with the right shutter speed in Arnastapi, Iceland. The moon, cropped heavily from a 300mm lens. Or that crane flying away from the beach.
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10-22-2021, 10:24 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
Also I dont know if I am right but isnt GR3 waterproof? Underwater shooting is one area where point and shoots still thrive.
No, the GR III isn't even weather sealed, much less waterproof. Ricoh makes some waterproof tough cameras, but I think they all have tiny sensors without that cell phone processing magic to compensate.
10-22-2021, 10:34 AM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
Might I know what is the use case for a DSLR for you? What is it that your DSLR can do but not the phone? Just curious.
QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Things like these.
@brainwave - may I offer a response too?

Specific use-cases aside (and I agree with the examples given by @ThorSanchez), when I use my smartphone it feels like much of the hard and clever work is done for me, and I get what the phone thinks I want... which is fine, as it usually provides a decent image - but I don't get much (if any) satisfaction from the process. Aside from composition, I know that anyone could have taken that same photo using an equally-capable smartphone.

When I use my DSLR, I have to use the skills I've learned to craft each image as I visualise it, and I have very fine control over every aspect of the exposure (or multiple exposures). There's a real sense of satisfaction in applying knowledge and skill to obtain what I visualised while composing.

I guess it's rather like the difference between ordering a piece of solid wood furniture online and crafting one from raw materials using the tools in your workshop. Ordering a ready-made item is much easier, and either way you end up with a nice piece of furniture, but if you make it yourself, you exercise absolute control over every aspect... and the satisfaction of having crafted it with your own hands makes it all the more special to you.

Working to achieve something is much more satisfying than having it handed to you on a silver platter..
10-22-2021, 11:39 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
@brainwave - may I offer a response too?

Specific use-cases aside (and I agree with the examples given by @ThorSanchez), when I use my smartphone it feels like much of the hard and clever work is done for me, and I get what the phone thinks I want... which is fine, as it usually provides a decent image - but I don't get much (if any) satisfaction from the process. Aside from composition, I know that anyone could have taken that same photo using an equally-capable smartphone.

When I use my DSLR, I have to use the skills I've learned to craft each image as I visualise it, and I have very fine control over every aspect of the exposure (or multiple exposures). There's a real sense of satisfaction in applying knowledge and skill to obtain what I visualised while composing.

I guess it's rather like the difference between ordering a piece of solid wood furniture online and crafting one from raw materials using the tools in your workshop. Ordering a ready-made item is much easier, and either way you end up with a nice piece of furniture, but if you make it yourself, you exercise absolute control over every aspect... and the satisfaction of having crafted it with your own hands makes it all the more special to you.

Working to achieve something is much more satisfying than having it handed to you on a silver platter..
Ah, but couldn't you argue that having control over ISO instead of going out for the day with ISO400 film is too much automation? Isn't TAv mode with auto-floating ISO too much of an intervention in the creative process? What about autofocus of the Mark III that tracks a moving subject almost like it knows what I'm trying to focus on? Or the 11+ fps that I can use to get a whole sequence and pick out the one(s) I really like? Daguerre, choking on mercury fumes, would probably think a modern ILC's processes amazingly simple and automated.


I enjoy the process of using my DSLR and my skills to make unique photographs. But every line drawn in the "it's too easy to be art any more" sand is pretty arbitrary.
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