Nikon vs Canon

Blue · 06-09-2009, 06:47 AM

I have screwed up plenty with Nikon. I screw up more with Pentax these days because I use Pentax 98% of the time, Nikon .1% of the time and Canon film about 0.5% and Mamiya film 0.4% of the time.

However, if I were to buy a new body at present, it would be a K-7. However, I have the K20d and won't be doing so until it makes since for me to.

Have you been messing with the lens calibration etc?

Gooshin · 06-09-2009, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Hey Elwood

oh...lets see...probably because I don't what to have grainy pictures. And what would you have done oh wise one.

I love it...insult me and then not give me any specific suggestions.

your K20D can shoot at iso ONE hundred...

you also had exposure compensation at +1EV on some of those shots??

specific suggestions?

you have HSS on your 540, on bright sunny days, use that.

as i mentioned before, take a shot with out the flash to figure out what your baseline is, when its bright outside flash is used to fill in the shadows, NOT try to win the sun over.

read stuff on strobist

séamuis · 06-09-2009, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Hey Elwood

oh...lets see...probably because I don't what to have grainy pictures. And what would you have done oh wise one.

I love it...insult me and then not give me any specific suggestions.

use ISO 100 for starters. the point he (and I) was making was that your ISO is too HIGH, your ISO will go down to 100. which is what you should be using for flash photography. and although it doesn't really matter, its noise not grain. your flash (as stated) has a sync speed of 1/180th of a second. were you using an external flash or the built in flash?

ISO 200 and +1 EV=over exposure.

Chris Stearns · 06-09-2009, 06:54 AM

Your k20 must be broken. I'll take it off your hands for the cost of shipping.

And Sv mode is for suckers. If you don't feel comfortable with Manual mode, then use Aperture Priority mode. That will allow you depth of field control. Also, you may want to play around with exposure compensation to avoid overexposure.

Seriously though, don't set the camera to basically auto and then blame the camera when your shots look like sh*t. Learn how to use your gear!

Nesster · 06-09-2009, 07:00 AM

The Nikon examples are of a particular strength of that system: flash photography. Nikon syncs at a higher speed, has a lot of automation around balancing light etc. Nikon is the best in the business at that stuff.

With other systems, Pentax among them, there's additional effort the photographer must make to get things to jell. The unfortunate expectation in these automated times is that the camera ought to do these things right out of the box.

The thing to do is to test out the flash set up and learn the adjustments needed. Or, sell the damn thing and go Nikon

and then curse whatever limitations and issues come with that system.

Cosmo · 06-09-2009, 07:05 AM

It's not the equipment, it's you.

Learn to focus and expose properly. And don't use on camera flash, as shown here, it produces images with very flat lighting.

rburgoss · 06-09-2009, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by Hey Elwood

I was shoting with a flashgun on SV mode with the ISO set to 200. I was using AF as well with continueous focusing.

Not to mention the fact that when I talked to him about his camera he showed me how his attached Nikon flashgun would extend to 85 mm on TTL mode. I know for a fact Pentax will only extend the flash gun out to 58 mm on TTL...trust me...I tested it on a 540. When I called Pentax for assistance on that issue a few months ago I was told no digital SLR would extend a flashgun out further then 58 mm.

I just proved that was not true.

Hmmm.. how to say this and at the same time, not offend?

About the flash extending to 85 mmm.... well, the pentax rep is RIGHT. Your 540 will extend up to 58 mm if set to DIGITAL. If you set it to 35 mm, then it will show 85 mm. Extension is the same (and angle of coverage too). Pentax is just being more informative with the 540 and lets you know what the real angle of coverage is depending on shooting format.

About your pictures compared to the ones from "the other guy", I have to say there is one BIG difference. The background!. In all his pictures, except probably the last one, none of his backgrounds are as bright as yours, meaning this, that he did not had to blow the backgrounds to properly expose the main subjects.

About the focus issue, well my friend, that is a matter of practice and knowing your gear. I personally thing choosing continous af with this type of pictures is an error. Also, if you chose continous af PLUS auto af sensor, then you are asking for the same results you got.

Stop blaming the instrument about what is supposed to be managed by the photographer. It is like claiming someone is a better musician because he plays a Steinway full size concert piano and not a small stand church piano. If you are a good musician, you can make any instrument sound good, but if you suck at it, it won't help to have the Berlin Philarmonica with von Karajan directing your concert...

SuperAkuma · 06-09-2009, 07:24 AM

Your camera maybe broken or it is you. Because I can tell you that my $100 point and shoot camera in auto will take sharper pictured than that and I've seen how the quality of the K20D when used correctly.

How long have you had the K20D? If you just bought it, then you don't know how to use the camera. The camera is pretty complicated. It looks like the last two image you overexposed your camera by one stop according to the metadata in your picture.

As far as the lens being out of focus, how far was the subject when you took the image? You do know that you need to be at least 3 feet away from the subject in order for THAT lens to focus right?

I would go out and try to take some test shots of something outside but in AUTO mode. If you still get the same overexposed out of focus image, something is wrong with your camera. If the image is better, sharp, and correctly exposed, then you have to admit that you made some errors on that day. We all make errors and that is how we learn.

Honestly, I don't believe one brand is superior to another if the tool is used correctly.

and · 06-09-2009, 07:28 AM

I can say Nikons flash system is better than pentax'. becase its better than any of the other brands imo.

otoh I dont see how you could be floored by those pictures as I dont find them that much better than yours, apart from one of yours not being in focus.

what is it about the nikon pictures that you like so much better

maxwell1295 · 06-09-2009, 07:38 AM

Looks like your metering was set to spot, hence the slower shutter, bright background, and motion blur.

Try this: Shoot in TAv mode @ F5.6, with ISO ranging from 100-800, shutter at 1/250th sec, and use center weighted metering. Also make sure you use selectable focus or center point focus. If something is moving quickly don't be afraid to use AF-C instead of AF-S.

Hey Elwood · 06-09-2009, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by bymy141

I’m sorry you feel like you do about your K20D / 50-135mm combo.
It is great stuff, but somewhat difficult to master.

Your photos are overexposed, what may well be intentional since some of them are shot against the light.
However, in a back-light situation proper exposure with a flash most often gives a better all over coverage of the picture.
Also, your photos look somewhat out of focus. They lack sharpness.

A few things to inspect:
- Are you sure your camera is not in spot metering mode?
- Your Ev compensation is set to 0
- Are you sure your camera was using the right autofocus point?
- Your 50-135mm lens is a VERY strong less, meaning all open it will have a very shallow depth of field. Much more shallow than a kit lens in auto flash mode (f 5.6?) Examine the exposure setting of the photos please (they are in the Exif data).
- Your camera can be front of back focusing. It happens sometimes, also with Nikon cameras. Which is problem you can correct manually with a K20D. You may want to test this.

I’d say there is probably nothing wrong with your camera and/or lens, however it would need some more inspection to be sure.
If your gear turns out to be ok, I’d advise you to do more than a little experimenting with the combination with various exposure settings to learn how to improve your pictures.

I hope this helps.

- Bert

Hi Bert,

Thank you for some great advise. This is the kind of response I was hoping for. It will help me try to figure out what I might be doing wrong.

Hey Elwood · 06-09-2009, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Blue

I have screwed up plenty with Nikon. I screw up more with Pentax these days because I use Pentax 98% of the time, Nikon .1% of the time and Canon film about 0.5% and Mamiya film 0.4% of the time.

However, if I were to buy a new body at present, it would be a K-7. However, I have the K20d and won't be doing so until it makes since for me to.

Have you been messing with the lens calibration etc?

Lens calibration?

Hey Elwood · 06-09-2009, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Gooshin

your K20D can shoot at iso ONE hundred...

you also had exposure compensation at +1EV on some of those shots??

specific suggestions?

you have HSS on your 540, on bright sunny days, use that.

as i mentioned before, take a shot with out the flash to figure out what your baseline is, when its bright outside flash is used to fill in the shadows, NOT try to win the sun over.

read stuff on strobist

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I don't have a 540 flashgun, I just tested the settings on it. I was comparing it to an off brand flashgun. I ended up buying the off brand flashgun.

Gooshin · 06-09-2009, 08:22 AM

so what kind of off-brand flashgun are we talking about here?

what are you setting options?

Blue · 06-09-2009, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Hey Elwood

Lens calibration?

Take a look at the suggestions by bymy141 first and see where that gets you because that is a good list.

The K20 has a feature to allow the calibration of lenses. Check your Users Manual that came with your K20d and there are some threads on here discussing it as well. That * lens of yours would be a good one to tweak with the K20d.

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06-09-2009, 06:47 AM	#16
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	I have screwed up plenty with Nikon. I screw up more with Pentax these days because I use Pentax 98% of the time, Nikon .1% of the time and Canon film about 0.5% and Mamiya film 0.4% of the time. However, if I were to buy a new body at present, it would be a K-7. However, I have the K20d and won't be doing so until it makes since for me to. Have you been messing with the lens calibration etc?

06-09-2009, 06:48 AM	#17
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by Hey Elwood oh...lets see...probably because I don't what to have grainy pictures. And what would you have done oh wise one. I love it...insult me and then not give me any specific suggestions. your K20D can shoot at iso ONE hundred... you also had exposure compensation at +1EV on some of those shots?? specific suggestions? you have HSS on your 540, on bright sunny days, use that. as i mentioned before, take a shot with out the flash to figure out what your baseline is, when its bright outside flash is used to fill in the shadows, NOT try to win the sun over. read stuff on strobist

06-09-2009, 06:50 AM	#18
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Originally posted by Hey Elwood oh...lets see...probably because I don't what to have grainy pictures. And what would you have done oh wise one. I love it...insult me and then not give me any specific suggestions. use ISO 100 for starters. the point he (and I) was making was that your ISO is too HIGH, your ISO will go down to 100. which is what you should be using for flash photography. and although it doesn't really matter, its noise not grain. your flash (as stated) has a sync speed of 1/180th of a second. were you using an external flash or the built in flash? ISO 200 and +1 EV=over exposure.

06-09-2009, 06:54 AM	#19
Chris Stearns Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Southern Illinois Photos: Albums Posts: 58	Your k20 must be broken. I'll take it off your hands for the cost of shipping. And Sv mode is for suckers. If you don't feel comfortable with Manual mode, then use Aperture Priority mode. That will allow you depth of field control. Also, you may want to play around with exposure compensation to avoid overexposure. Seriously though, don't set the camera to basically auto and then blame the camera when your shots look like sh*t. Learn how to use your gear!

06-09-2009, 07:00 AM	#20
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	The Nikon examples are of a particular strength of that system: flash photography. Nikon syncs at a higher speed, has a lot of automation around balancing light etc. Nikon is the best in the business at that stuff. With other systems, Pentax among them, there's additional effort the photographer must make to get things to jell. The unfortunate expectation in these automated times is that the camera ought to do these things right out of the box. The thing to do is to test out the flash set up and learn the adjustments needed. Or, sell the damn thing and go Nikon and then curse whatever limitations and issues come with that system.

06-09-2009, 07:05 AM	#21
Cosmo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 488	It's not the equipment, it's you. Learn to focus and expose properly. And don't use on camera flash, as shown here, it produces images with very flat lighting.

06-09-2009, 07:20 AM	#22
rburgoss Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: San Jose, Costa Rica Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 972	Originally posted by Hey Elwood I was shoting with a flashgun on SV mode with the ISO set to 200. I was using AF as well with continueous focusing. Not to mention the fact that when I talked to him about his camera he showed me how his attached Nikon flashgun would extend to 85 mm on TTL mode. I know for a fact Pentax will only extend the flash gun out to 58 mm on TTL...trust me...I tested it on a 540. When I called Pentax for assistance on that issue a few months ago I was told no digital SLR would extend a flashgun out further then 58 mm. I just proved that was not true. Hmmm.. how to say this and at the same time, not offend? About the flash extending to 85 mmm.... well, the pentax rep is RIGHT. Your 540 will extend up to 58 mm if set to DIGITAL. If you set it to 35 mm, then it will show 85 mm. Extension is the same (and angle of coverage too). Pentax is just being more informative with the 540 and lets you know what the real angle of coverage is depending on shooting format. About your pictures compared to the ones from "the other guy", I have to say there is one BIG difference. The background!. In all his pictures, except probably the last one, none of his backgrounds are as bright as yours, meaning this, that he did not had to blow the backgrounds to properly expose the main subjects. About the focus issue, well my friend, that is a matter of practice and knowing your gear. I personally thing choosing continous af with this type of pictures is an error. Also, if you chose continous af PLUS auto af sensor, then you are asking for the same results you got. Stop blaming the instrument about what is supposed to be managed by the photographer. It is like claiming someone is a better musician because he plays a Steinway full size concert piano and not a small stand church piano. If you are a good musician, you can make any instrument sound good, but if you suck at it, it won't help to have the Berlin Philarmonica with von Karajan directing your concert...

06-09-2009, 07:24 AM	#23
SuperAkuma Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 445	Your camera maybe broken or it is you. Because I can tell you that my $100 point and shoot camera in auto will take sharper pictured than that and I've seen how the quality of the K20D when used correctly. How long have you had the K20D? If you just bought it, then you don't know how to use the camera. The camera is pretty complicated. It looks like the last two image you overexposed your camera by one stop according to the metadata in your picture. As far as the lens being out of focus, how far was the subject when you took the image? You do know that you need to be at least 3 feet away from the subject in order for THAT lens to focus right? I would go out and try to take some test shots of something outside but in AUTO mode. If you still get the same overexposed out of focus image, something is wrong with your camera. If the image is better, sharp, and correctly exposed, then you have to admit that you made some errors on that day. We all make errors and that is how we learn. Honestly, I don't believe one brand is superior to another if the tool is used correctly.

06-09-2009, 07:28 AM	#24
and Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,476	I can say Nikons flash system is better than pentax'. becase its better than any of the other brands imo. otoh I dont see how you could be floored by those pictures as I dont find them that much better than yours, apart from one of yours not being in focus. what is it about the nikon pictures that you like so much better

06-09-2009, 07:38 AM	#25
maxwell1295 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,703	Looks like your metering was set to spot, hence the slower shutter, bright background, and motion blur. Try this: Shoot in TAv mode @ F5.6, with ISO ranging from 100-800, shutter at 1/250th sec, and use center weighted metering. Also make sure you use selectable focus or center point focus. If something is moving quickly don't be afraid to use AF-C instead of AF-S.

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06-09-2009, 07:52 AM	#26
Hey Elwood Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Highland, MI Posts: 336 Original Poster	Originally posted by bymy141 I’m sorry you feel like you do about your K20D / 50-135mm combo. It is great stuff, but somewhat difficult to master. Your photos are overexposed, what may well be intentional since some of them are shot against the light. However, in a back-light situation proper exposure with a flash most often gives a better all over coverage of the picture. Also, your photos look somewhat out of focus. They lack sharpness. A few things to inspect: - Are you sure your camera is not in spot metering mode? - Your Ev compensation is set to 0 - Are you sure your camera was using the right autofocus point? - Your 50-135mm lens is a VERY strong less, meaning all open it will have a very shallow depth of field. Much more shallow than a kit lens in auto flash mode (f 5.6?) Examine the exposure setting of the photos please (they are in the Exif data). - Your camera can be front of back focusing. It happens sometimes, also with Nikon cameras. Which is problem you can correct manually with a K20D. You may want to test this. I’d say there is probably nothing wrong with your camera and/or lens, however it would need some more inspection to be sure. If your gear turns out to be ok, I’d advise you to do more than a little experimenting with the combination with various exposure settings to learn how to improve your pictures. I hope this helps. - Bert Hi Bert, Thank you for some great advise. This is the kind of response I was hoping for. It will help me try to figure out what I might be doing wrong.

06-09-2009, 07:53 AM	#27
Hey Elwood Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Highland, MI Posts: 336 Original Poster	Originally posted by Blue I have screwed up plenty with Nikon. I screw up more with Pentax these days because I use Pentax 98% of the time, Nikon .1% of the time and Canon film about 0.5% and Mamiya film 0.4% of the time. However, if I were to buy a new body at present, it would be a K-7. However, I have the K20d and won't be doing so until it makes since for me to. Have you been messing with the lens calibration etc? Lens calibration?

06-09-2009, 07:56 AM	#28
Hey Elwood Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Highland, MI Posts: 336 Original Poster	Originally posted by Gooshin your K20D can shoot at iso ONE hundred... you also had exposure compensation at +1EV on some of those shots?? specific suggestions? you have HSS on your 540, on bright sunny days, use that. as i mentioned before, take a shot with out the flash to figure out what your baseline is, when its bright outside flash is used to fill in the shadows, NOT try to win the sun over. read stuff on strobist Sorry, I forgot to mention that I don't have a 540 flashgun, I just tested the settings on it. I was comparing it to an off brand flashgun. I ended up buying the off brand flashgun.

06-09-2009, 08:22 AM	#29
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	so what kind of off-brand flashgun are we talking about here? what are you setting options?

06-09-2009, 08:24 AM	#30
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Hey Elwood Lens calibration? Take a look at the suggestions by bymy141 first and see where that gets you because that is a good list. The K20 has a feature to allow the calibration of lenses. Check your Users Manual that came with your K20d and there are some threads on here discussing it as well. That * lens of yours would be a good one to tweak with the K20d.