[flyer]

Hi everyone,

Well, once again I'm seriously disappointed with my K20d. This past weekend I was out at a good-bye party for a friend of mine who is moving to Korea. Well, I brought my k20d along for the ride and sure enough there was another gentleman there shooting with a Nikon d80. He was shoting with a flash gun. I was completely amazed by the photos he was getting out of his camera versus my k20d. What was even more shocking was getting his shots with the KIT LENS. That floored me. I had to shoot with my DA 50-135 just to get anywhere close to his shots. I think I may have made a bad investment in the k20d.

Here's some examples.

Here are a few photos I got with my DA 50-135 (these have not been edited)







And here some of the pictures Adam got out of his Nikon d80 (straight out of the camera with the kit lens).

On your pictures, the camera set the exposure for the main subject. On your friends Nikon, the exposure is set for the background, and the flash took care of the foreground. With just about any Pentax compatible flashes, you could have had similar results. Sv. mode is far from being the best for this kind of situation. Av. mode is more suited for this. Having your AF set to continuous means you can fire the shutter EVEN IF your camera didn't lock focus. I wuold suggest you get a decent book about flash use and practice how to use it. Unfortunately, yu can't buy experience, you have to work for it.

[krypticide]

I know the feedback has seemed harsh here, but I definitely agree that it's not the camera in this case. The feedback about backgrounds is definitely good advice.

Frankly, I don't think your photos are worse than his. Yours are overexposed, his are underexposed. I think there's a lot more room to improve in terms of proper exposure for both of you. However, there may be some advantages to having faster autofocus (which the K-7 would provide), in case that really was a limiting factor.

[palmor]

I know you didn't like the harsh criticism but when you say "I think I may have made a bad investment in the k20d" that will bring it on. Your assumption that it was the camera's fault right off the bat kind of set you off on the wrong foot IMO.

Anyway, I think everyone else has said it all. Your exposure was off and you had some out of focus photos. The only thing to be done now is to go out and practice your technique



John

I too have been less than pleased with the PTTL flash experience... after two years with pentax I have decided to just bring a point and shoot along for the flash shots... My 7 year old daughter with a 5 year old point and shoot out did me at the last family gathering.

The final straw for me also included a 'just out of the box' Nikon D80 + flash. Our cousin had just had a baby and was given the D80 + kit + flash as a present. She had no experience with a DSLR and so put it on auto... almost all of her shots exposed correctly. After a year and a half with my pentax and after all the tips given to me by our forum friends... I managed maybe 10% keepers on the flash shots... Exposure all over the place.
Now when the flashes came off, My tamron 28-75 2.8 blew the 'auto shootin' kit out of the water IMHO...

To get nice family snaps like these without flash and then see the poor results with flash is very disappointing, for me anyway.






But if I had a nickel for every time someone claimed "user error" about my inconsistent pentax flash results... I could buy a kanicon to use as my flash camera! There is no answer for how a newbie, shooting 'auto flash' with a slow lens should be getting way better exposure consistency than I could after a year and half with all the "work around" tips that I had practiced with.
I just can not trust the PTTL to get it right! And it is frustrating to have all these folks chime in about user error and never post a full series of family event flash shots as an example... even I could post one from an event where the Pttl worked.. haha
Honestly other than flash studio series, how many family flash shots do we see posted in the 'post your photo' threads?

Now these are my issues, as you can see from the responses here, few seem to have any real issues with their flash shots... so having said my spiel...

You do have to listen to what the folks are saying here. Take the tips offered and practice... You have some basic mistakes on some of the shots that if fixed would have improved them. Flash indoors is very different from fill flash outdoors... Also I am not sure which off brand flash you have, but if your flash shots are important to you... spend the money and get a good flash... the AF 540or the metz / sigma equivalent.

Take the good tips offered here and practice in non-critical times. You should be able to get much better than this effort.

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Last edited by Igilligan; 06-09-2009 at 12:18 PM.

Nikon vs Canon

What's the Canon aspect of this thread? I don't get it.

BTW, it's not easy to tell from these smallish pictures, but aren't they out of focus?

[bymy141]

Hi Bert,

Thank you for some great advise. This is the kind of response I was hoping for. It will help me try to figure out what I might be doing wrong.

You're welcome.
I think that is what a forum is all about.
Next time, you'll help me....

Cheers, Bert

[palmor]

I just can not trust the PTTL to get it right! And it is frustrating to have all these folks chime in about user error and never post a full series of family event flash shots as an example... even I could post one from an event where the Pttl worked.. haha

Personally I have no problem with the Flash system and the family type photos. I just uploaded this entire set of photos taken with the K20, Sigma 17-70 and Sigma flash. No exposure issues at all.

Sorry for the large size of the photos, I didn't have them on pbase and just uploaded them for this thread. After viewing the 1st one click on "large" then it will scale it down and all others you view down to a normal size.

Also, pay no attention to the ISO setting on the 1st couple of shots.. I didn't realize I had it set so high before I took the photos (big time user error). Luckily they didn't come out that bad

Oh, I did bounce the flash off the ceiling (pretty high ceiling) in all these shots.. I don't have a diffuser for some reason (something on the list to buy)

bday Photo Gallery by palmor at pbase.com

John

Edit: There is one obvious one where the flash didn't fire btw, easy to pick out because of the amount of motion and blur and the shutter speed was 1/5th s

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Last edited by palmor; 06-09-2009 at 12:56 PM.

[IsaacSteiner]

Usually it's the photographer. Not saying your not a good photographer, but I wouldn't blame the camera. I liked some of the photos you had, or the ones without the flash.

-Isaac

[Jodokast96]

oh...lets see...probably because I don't what to have grainy pictures. And what would you have done oh wise one.

I love it...insult me and then not give me any specific suggestions.

That comment right there indicates user error more than anything. That's not an insult, but rather a near fact.

[PDL]

You had the camera set to 1+ev and pattern metering (from the EXIF in PhotoMe). Meaning the images were going to be overexposed and the edges of the frame (the bright areas) were causing the images to be washed out due to the metering method providing too much bias. I would suggest using center weighted metering on backlit subjects, especially if you just shoot centered only subjects. I bet you also had the camera hunt for each image as you pressed the shutter button - meantime you were shooting at pretty open f/stops with a flash. I personally dispise shutter button coupled AF - so I will not go there. I also dispise using flash - especially flash that is axial to the lens - I would pay real money to have a Pentax DSLR without a flash, never had one on my film SLR's and I took thousands of images without one.

You should consider this a lesson in how to - or how not to - set up the camera. Get a flash, if you insist on using one, that is off camera. Study some DOF tables to understand where objects will be in focus. Remember, blurring is not all that bad (unless it is just plain old out of focus) and can/does add interest.

As for the comments - you asked what was wrong, someone makes some comment and you get bent? Granted, their comments could have been a little more constructive, but you did sort of show up with a chip on your shoulder. No, I do not think it was the camera's fault, it did only what you told it to do. I suggest that you review your technique to understand how to get the best out of the device - rather than jumping to the conclusion that a Nikon will give you "better" images out of the box. If what you want is "out of the box" easy sheesy - now don't get bent - get a high end P&S and give the DSLR to someone who really wants to understand and explore how to get the most out of the camera.

The presumed Nikon examples you show do not have any EXIF - so we can not tell how the camera was configured. More data please.

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL

[Mallee Boy]

Hi Hey,
Mate if you seriously think you have made a bad investment in your camera gear, then the solution is within your grasp....sell it and get what you believe will give you the results you seek. Your call.

However, before you do that just have a close look at the shots you have posted as examples as to why the grass is greener on the other side.

Your shots are all against strong backlight, and therefore over exposed.
Conversely the compostion of your friends shots is a lot smarter, he has avoided the back light and paid a lot of attention to angles in doing so, thus getting the exposure right.

The camera is only a tool at the end of the day, how the tool is used is up to the individual.

I honestly do not think any camera will overcome this for you....but, hey, if it makes you happy go for it.

Best of luck with your decision.
Grant

Those are so much better than anything I have gotten consitantly, in fact img-4734 and img-4741 the guitar shots, are what I would kill to see from my Pentax, perfect family moments...

And if I am reading the photo numbers correct, it is almost one right after another... I am shocked!

I guess maybe it just is user error, or I maybe I am expecting too much from the Dslr. You have some special shots there, but my guess is, in many of those conditions (fairly decently lit room with some window light) my Fuji F30 or S6000might do almost as well... Next family event I will bring both and see which does better...

but if it is still 'user error'... then after 2 years I give up! And I will just use the P&S... no reason to be as frustrated as the Pttl gets me... I am using a faster lens than you, the sigma flash, and using all the tips I have been given and the results are still not as good.

Or I will throw out the PTTL flash and just shoot manual thyristor flash again.

Thanks for the link...

Personally I have no problem with the Flash system and the family type photos. I just uploaded this entire set of photos taken with the K20, Sigma 17-70 and Sigma flash. No exposure issues at all.

Sorry for the large size of the photos, I didn't have them on pbase and just uploaded them for this thread. After viewing the 1st one click on "large" then it will scale it down and all others you view down to a normal size.

Also, pay no attention to the ISO setting on the 1st couple of shots.. I didn't realize I had it set so high before I took the photos (big time user error). Luckily they didn't come out that bad

Oh, I did bounce the flash off the ceiling (pretty high ceiling) in all these shots.. I don't have a diffuser for some reason (something on the list to buy)

bday Photo Gallery by palmor at pbase.com

John

Edit: There is one obvious one where the flash didn't fire btw, easy to pick out because of the amount of motion and blur and the shutter speed was 1/5th s

[wlachan]

Pentax has inferior AF and metering (flash or not), that's pretty universal knowledge. As to the lenses, each one is different and Pentax have many good lenses too. The major problem I can detect from your samples is that most of them are not sharp. This could be due to either AF limitation or user inability but I have no way to tell. Then again, one cannot judge the final quality based on the camera LCDs which can be quite far from accurate.

Hi Bert,

Thank you for some great advise. This is the kind of response I was hoping for. It will help me try to figure out what I might be doing wrong.

At least we're getting somewhere now. You started off this thread blaming your equipment and got testy when the advice being given pointed to that fact. Now you're accepting of the fact that you might have been doing something wrong.
So why the hissy fits beforehand?

Because the pentax flash PTTL system sucks like Fox news... hehe

It is so frustrating that when you get back from the party and start looking at your photos on the computer... You just have to sign into Pentax forums and VENT. A hissy fit if you will...

Goodness everyone knows that! I can relate to the need to vent!

Your day of flash frustration is coming DB... hopefully by the time you are doing your 3rd birthday party, pentax will have finally addressed the issues and have something close to reliable as the nikon flash system... Or at least given us back the TTL option.

Besides Hissy Fits are fun!