[Ash]

I wonder how good the 15-85 will be, it's a pretty aggressive zoom range for maintaining decent IQ.

That's what I'm thinking.
Otherwise I would have thought Pentax's 18-250 has a slightly better zoom range than this measly 15-85...

[pingflood]

That's what I'm thinking.
Otherwise I would have thought Pentax's 18-250 has a slightly better zoom range than this measly 15-85...

Hopefully the street price on it won't be quite as close to the (excellent) 17-55/2.8 or they won't sell many....

[Ratmagiclady]

I wonder how good the 15-85 will be, it's a pretty aggressive zoom range for maintaining decent IQ.

That's always the worry with real-wide to tele. I'd rather have more like my old way on film of pairing a 35-105 with a little consumer wide. (When I was a bit more spry I might have carried a nice 24 if it'd been a priority to spend the money on one: primes are just better for wide, anyway, and when I can't be changing lenses, it's the longer end I'd rather have. I wouldn't mind a lens that was nice in this range and incorporated a well, so-so wide angle function, so you don't have to carry anything else, but whatever. Unlikely to happen, save by chance.

Anyway, I hardly see why this d7 means 'Pentax better do full frame, soon,' ...it's clearly an answer to the Nikon D300s and to a leser extent K-7: Canon's been lacking a full-control APS-C-camera for a while, now.

I've got no idea if they *are,* but Pentax ought to wait to put out full-frame till the whole package will justify the price. They'd have to at least re-issue a lot of full-frame lenses, and given the general state of affairs with the system, the thing ought to be *legendary* or it'll just get ho-hummed anyway. Doesn't seem much percentage in rushing.

[GoldenWreckedAngle]

This is the first camera that's made me take a hard look away from a Nikon full frame for my next upgrade. That noise performance on an 18Mp cropped sensor, at that price point, with that feature set, creates a bar that effectively removes the K-7 from professional consideration for all but a handful of professional photographers already invested in the K-mount system.

That's not a problem for Pentax because they are not after the professional market. No, really, when they say things to that effect corporately they are not kidding. They really are focused on the cropped sensor enthusiast market for their top tier cameras. Really. They are not kidding themselves, Pentax photographers holding out for full frame need to stop kidding themselves too.

Even if Pentax were to release a full frame camera this year I think it's pretty clear at this point (or pretty much any point in recent history for that matter) that the proffesional market will continue to be FULLY owned by Canon and Nikon for a very, very long time. There is virtually no reason for Pentax to make a full frame body and lens line-up at this point. The professional market is not open to a new brand and enthusiasts shopping in that league are looking for a full system with professional industry support. Even the enthusiasts buying into a cropped sensor system at the $1,200 plus price point are going to be looking hard at the benifits of a full package professional system for a long term investment so the K-7 is even a stretch for their market segment.

Seriously folks, Pentax is not kidding here. They are not holding out. They really are not reaching higher at this point. At least not with 35mm. Full frame Pentax is not going to happen any time soon. They really, really mean it... really. It's not coming. It's just not. Sorry. Forget it. Not happening... and that's ok.

If you are a member of Pentax's target market this is not a problem for you. If it is a problem for you it is because you expect Pentax to comit suicide in order for you to feel justified that your brand is in a market segment you are not in. If you are genuinely in the full frame market segment buy a Canon, Nikon or Sony. They are now, and will continue to be your only seroius options for full frame performance at a reasonable price point for a good long time.

[Ratmagiclady]

They really, really mean it... really. It's not coming. It's just not. Sorry. Forget it. Not happening... and that's ok.

If you are a member of Pentax's target market this is not a problem for you. If it is a problem for you it is because you expect Pentax to comit suicide in order for you to feel justified that your brand is in a market segment you are not in. If you are genuinely in the full frame market segment buy a Canon, Nikon or Sony. They are now, and will continue to be your only seroius options for full frame performance at a reasonable price point for a good long time.

Well, I believe them at present: I also believe the situation will change in a few years, one way or another. I surely wouldn't be holding my breath for a FF Pentax, but I'm not in that position, anyway.

Part of the problem with the brands that claim to have a lock on the 'Professional' segment is that they've generally been *definiing* the 'professional segment' in ways that aren't of much use to me, certainly not just to have the same name on a prism housing.

A 'professional' camera is one that you can make a buck with: the jobs I need digital for, certainly APS-C can handle, and I've got to carry two lens mounts anyway: the existence of two and three thousand dollar cameras that you don't need most of what you pay that for doesn't help me much.

I'm here cause this is the best stuff anyone can put in my hands right now. Call it what you like.

[Ash]

That's not a problem for Pentax because they are not after the professional market. No, really, when they say things to that effect corporately they are not kidding. They really are focused on the cropped sensor enthusiast market for their top tier cameras. Really. They are not kidding themselves, Pentax photographers holding out for full frame need to stop kidding themselves too. Seriously folks, Pentax is not kidding here. They are not holding out. They really are not reaching higher at this point. At least not with 35mm. Full frame Pentax is not going to happen any time soon. They really, really mean it... really. It's not coming. It's just not. Sorry. Forget it. Not happening... and that's ok.

If you are a member of Pentax's target market this is not a problem for you. If it is a problem for you it is because you expect Pentax to comit suicide in order for you to feel justified that your brand is in a market segment you are not in. If you are genuinely in the full frame market segment buy a Canon, Nikon or Sony. They are now, and will continue to be your only seroius options for full frame performance at a reasonable price point for a good long time.

Compelling response.
It's all just business as usual for Pentax.
They do listen to consumers, but are realistic and committed to their target market.
It's all good IMO.

[Ratmagiclady]

Compelling response.
It's all just business as usual for Pentax.
They do listen to consumers, but are realistic and committed to their target market.
It's all good IMO.

It works. Though I figure, once they can impress 'enthusiasts' with a FF camera, it will happen. There's a few bucks there.

Definitely there always used to be different segments of the pro market. Pros shooting Pentax LXes and the like were always a rare breed, but they usually knew what they were doing. And usually an MX could do it, too.

Kinda like being a 'professional cyclist,' really, I wasn't looking for the three thousand dollar touring bike with all the bells and whistles or the one with every ounce shaved and engineered away for a specific purpose, I'd be taking the couple-hundred dollar thing and throwing all the stuff I didn't need in a parts box.

But there's money to be made in those three thousand dollar touring bikes. As soon as they can make a FF Pentax that'll actually result in more than talk, I think it'll happen. The whole digital race is starting to plateau, they can let everyone else sweat, and once it's not too big a deal to do the electronics right, bam. Put it all together. I wouldn't sit around waiting, though. Not if I really needed FF *now.*


I mean, if you really look at a lot of 'pros,' maybe they can afford the EOS-1 or the D-3, but in practice, they're carrying a lot of the smaller bodies not really made for them any time they have to be moving around a lot, it seems to me. So what's 'pro?'

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Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 09-01-2009 at 11:02 AM.

[Gooshin]

The Canon 7D at $1699. Pressure Pentax to make FF?

where do you people come up with such bullshit?

canon presents a next-gen APS-C, so pentax should drop everything an make a full frame sensor.

*facepalm*

i really, REALLY want to know what goes through a persons head to arrive at such a conclusion.

[pingflood]

where do you people come up with such bullshit?

canon presents a next-gen APS-C, so pentax should drop everything an make a full frame sensor.

*facepalm*

i really, REALLY want to know what goes through a persons head to arrive at such a conclusion.

I'm guessing that the train of thought (though I can't say I agree with it) was something along the lines of 7D will kill K7 because it's a more attractive camera that's not too much more expensive... where the train derails is as follows:

If the 7D is really a K7 sales killer... then you need to make a FF camera to compete with the plethora of FF cameras out there already and somehow make it better and more attractive.

I guess that the thought is that if you can't compete in APS-C, going full frame will somehow make it better...

Yeah, I don't know either.

[Ratmagiclady]

I'm guessing that the train of thought (though I can't say I agree with it) was something along the lines of 7D will kill K7 because it's a more attractive camera that's not too much more expensive... where the train derails is as follows:

If the 7D is really a K7 sales killer... then you need to make a FF camera to compete with the plethora of FF cameras out there already and somehow make it better and more attractive.

I guess that the thought is that if you can't compete in APS-C, going full frame will somehow make it better...

Yeah, I don't know either.

Really doesn't make sense. I thought just the other day the big 'Doom For Pentax' theory was that the K-7 isn't lighter enough compared to a Sony FF... Now it's 'threatened' by a 5d-sized APS-C camera. ( Both of which, of course, cost a lot more)

Maybe... They're just cameras.

[gokenin]

where do you people come up with such bullshit?

canon presents a next-gen APS-C, so pentax should drop everything an make a full frame sensor.

*facepalm*

i really, REALLY want to know what goes through a persons head to arrive at such a conclusion.

OK something has to be wrong with the world I am agreeing with Gooshin more and more these days. I fail to see the overwhelming need for Pentax to come out with a FF camera they may have decided to stay with the APS-C sensor and they will make really good lens for that sensor. If you need FF leave the Pentax behind and sell your system. I just dont understand what type of photography absolutely needs to be shot with a Full Frame sensor? Can someone explain this to me?

[pingflood]

OK something has to be wrong with the world I am agreeing with Gooshin more and more these days. I fail to see the overwhelming need for Pentax to come out with a FF camera they may have decided to stay with the APS-C sensor and they will make really good lens for that sensor. If you need FF leave the Pentax behind and sell your system. I just dont understand what type of photography absolutely needs to be shot with a Full Frame sensor? Can someone explain this to me?

Well, you can also argue that 4/3 is enough and you don't *need* APS-C, or that P&S sensors are enough and you don't *need* 4/3...

Full frame just has the ability to give pictures that are a little better resolution, dynamic range, and noise wise than APS-C. There's nothing magical there and frankly, most people really don't *need* it. Hell, I don't, but I have one because I really like what I get out of it. And having shot film for a long time, I kind of like being able to use some decent older glass the way it was designed; e.g. the Jupiter 85/2 for portraits, some 28mm for wide, etc... more a matter of personal preference than any sort of judgment.

Once full frame becomes truly affordable for most, though, I suspect medium format will be the new holy grail that will somehow make your vacation snapshots not suck. There's a huge crowd of camera owners (nee photographers) chasing after the pink dragon...

[Gooshin]

statistics will one day prove, that in the long run i am always right...

mauahahahahah

[GLXLR]

where do you people come up with such bullshit?

canon presents a next-gen APS-C, so pentax should drop everything an make a full frame sensor.

*facepalm*

i really, REALLY want to know what goes through a persons head to arrive at such a conclusion.

Hey. I can put my thoughts on here. This is a discussion. I wanted to know your thoughts, not just say "oh wow. Your idea is complete crap." My theory is that Pentax needs to get into the FF market because of the few models and how FF is getting cheaper every day and that a lot of people i know won't buy into the Pentax system because there isn't a model they can really look up to, even though they all know they won't be getting FF.

If you disagree then at least say why. In fact, I don't want YOUR bull shit. Maybe instead of just putting down people's comments, why not give a intelligent response? Or is that bull shit too?

I didn't post this thread 12 o clock AM while doing homework just so people can put down my ideas.

[Ratmagiclady]

Well, you can also argue that 4/3 is enough and you don't *need* APS-C, or that P&S sensors are enough and you don't *need* 4/3...

Once full frame becomes truly affordable for most, though, I suspect medium format will be the new holy grail that will somehow make your vacation snapshots not suck. There's a huge crowd of camera owners (nee photographers) chasing after the pink dragon...

Well, I think the thing about 4/3s is that it was just a bad bet on sensor development (and the costs of surface area) going in certain directions. Along with optical design advancements that don't seem to have been forthcoming, the crop factor just puts the most useful FOV's out of the range of nice fast primes, so where's the worth there.

And to make a half-decent optical SLR finder for it, you give up all the presumptive size advantages, anyway: they're doing the right thing reviving the Pen concept, I think.

One of these days someone'll perfect the zoom lens and it'll all be moot, anyway.