[wasim_altaf]

me too. That's one thing that always bothered me. I think the K20d is just a bit "short"....and the depth of the grip could be just a *bit* different, allowing you to manipulate the camera quickly

And my observation was based on 40d, which may very well be a bit smaller than 5d.

In fairness to K20D, try out a Sony, particularly the A700 -- simply atrocious ergonomics. One needs to grow a pair of extra limbs to reach and operate all the controls.

[wasim_altaf]

Sensor and the circuitry behind the senso affects the dynamic range. It's a challenge for analog designers in just about all low-power, current-limiting applications. You need a good process foundry and good circuit designers to maintain good DR across the band.

The Samsung sensor and the associated circuitry probably don't hold up well in that regard. Is it used by any other camera brands at all?

[Samsungian]

I replied to:"I know the 5D setup was more then 4 times the cost of what I was using".

So since you've decided he's not talking "cost" or "money", whats : "4 times the cost" referring to in the quote I clipped and I replied to,

NoStatic Dude???

I think its money, outlay, cost, Right? I guess not, then OK then go ahead and correct me, whats the "4 Times the cost" referring to ???

Anyways the point of this thread is a 4&1/2 year old technology 5D is clearly better than Pentax newer offers and in my world that was a simple a $450 difference at one specific point in time. 5D versus K20D in May 2008. I thought it was INSANE Pentax needed $1299 for K20D and I voted with my wallet...for a pair of Canon full frames instead.

Glad you bought Canon gear last couple months? Canon's well known & annual Cash Off Rebates at Point of Sale should start in about 10 days now I've been holding off past couple months on a couple items I hope will drop some $100 to $500, as lenses do every mid October. Canon always provides real savings if you read up on when the best time to buy is, well if money, "Costs" matters to you.

I can't afford to pay top dollar as you apparently can NoStatic Dude,
I have to look for values.

Do you ever talk about anything other than price and what you paid for your cameras? There was not a single mention of cost in this thread. Not everyone is obsessed with purchase prices...

I spent today shooting a couple of boats on the water for a company I work for. One of the other shooters was using a 5D mki. I have to say I am blown away with the image quality, colour and sharpness of the 5D with the 17-40 f4.0 L at ISO 1000.

Sure I've seen images in reviews, but this is the first time I have seen the Canon RAW files side by side with my K10D files.

I know the 5D setup was more then 4 times the cost of what I was using... So there should be a difference. But wow.

Maybe next time I'll get to use the 5D.


Sorry I can't post the images yet.

[nostatic]

Glad you bought Canon gear last couple months? Canon's well known & annual Cash Off Rebates at Point of Sale should start in about 10 days now I've been holding off past couple months on a couple items I hope will drop some $100 to $500, as lenses do every mid October. Canon always provides real savings if you read up on when the best time to buy is, well if money, "Costs" matters to you.

I can't afford to pay top dollar as you apparently can NoStatic Dude,
I have to look for values.

Almost every one of your posts goes on and on about what you paid, blah blah blah. Everyone likes a bargain, but it seems with you it is your sole reason for existence.

And I'm glad you track the rebates. Did you also track the wholesale and MAP price increases that happened on 1Oct09? Like say, the 35/1.4L going from $1900 to $2300 MSRP (along with a dealer net increase). But I'm sure you'll get a rebate to offset that...

I care about cost and like a deal. But I'm not obsessed with it, nor do I blather on about my "deals" at any and all opportunities. Most people don't. You do.

[Samsungian]

I saw the Canon prices pop up 3 weeks before Oct1st. B&H, KEH, Adorama all jumped ahead of the Oct 1 starting gun.

Why do you want 35mm 1.4L ? You know its due for an improved upon version II ? Wait a few weeks or a couple months & people will be dumping their 35mm 1.4L for 35mm 1.4L II once it announces.

I watched Canon System pricing from 5D announcement, it's launch and subsequent annual price drops. When 5D launched at $3299 I instead paid full price for K Mount dslr. 5 months later I paid exactly HALF for an identical K Mount Dslr and swore I'd never buy another Pentax dslr thats still at its suggested retail. Pentax is predicable, so is Canon. Nikon had some huge price spikes too. Its more about Yen to Dollar trade and if dollar stays low and possibly goes lower then better imaging gear costs will continue to inflate.

Yeah, I like talking price, usually in response to posts where price comparisions don't make sense, at least to me.

For me a K20D at $1,299 versus 5D for $1,750 was a No Brainer choice.

KEH gets $1650 for LN- 5D and LN- K20D used are worth what... maybe $450? Canon gear has much better residual value on used market too. Indeed I've used my 5D some 16 months and that use has cost me a bit more than C~Note, or $100. What~a~Deal. At same point in time purchase the K20D would have cost me/lost me $850 in residual resale value. Ouch!

Almost every one of your posts goes on and on about what you paid, blah blah blah. Everyone likes a bargain, but it seems with you it is your sole reason for existence.

And I'm glad you track the rebates. Did you also track the wholesale and MAP price increases that happened on 1Oct09? Like say, the 35/1.4L going from $1900 to $2300 MSRP (along with a dealer net increase). But I'm sure you'll get a rebate to offset that...

I care about cost and like a deal. But I'm not obsessed with it, nor do I blather on about my "deals" at any and all opportunities. Most people don't. You do.

[KungPOW]

My point with the "4 times the cost" comment was to indicate I understood I was compairing cameras from two different price brackets. I was trying to prevent the "you are comparing apples to oranges" replies.

It was not my intention to start a "who got the best deal" thread.

[Samsungian]

Its all good. Pentaxians are allowed their opinions, right or wrong except for me.

Pentax doesn't give me free gear to chitchat about so I have opinions based on what things cost me.

Everyone says full frame is small market. These older full frame cameras don't disappear. More and more people every month, every year end up owning some kind of full frame Dslr whether bought new or used & they agree with you:

Full frame Image quality is better than anyones latest&greatest crop format camera. Simple fact.

If pentax offered a full frame then owners of Pentax full frame would also say its better and those who don't own full frame would disagree. The ones who'd still disagree would say they don't need it, they don't want it, its too small a market, its all poorly built, its too expensive, ect...


A few people take exception of my price comaprisions, so I make:

Price Comparisions my Niche



Having lost $100 residual value on my 5D versus loosing $850 on K20D IS HUGE.

Pentax is not "Subaru", I think its more like Hundai

My point with the "4 times the cost" comment was to indicate I understood I was compairing cameras from two different price brackets. I was trying to prevent the "you are comparing apples to oranges" replies.

It was not my intention to start a "who got the best deal" thread.

---

Last edited by Samsungian; 10-07-2009 at 03:47 PM.

[Gooshin]

btw guys, if price is an issue, take a look at the Nikon D700, cheaper than the Mkii and you could quickly assemble a usable lens base for not much more than what pentax would set you back.

its only 12 mp but who cares! :P

[georgweb]

Hi guys,

I'd like to know from your experience if you could rate the following cameras only regarding low light performance. Let's be more specific, I'd appreciate 'real world' experience with those cams, dark indoor shots, stage shots, artificial light.

The easiest is to talk ISO I guess (in the sense of keeping the DR and the pic not totally falling apart). Obviously my yardstick is the first camera.

Pentax K100D (my current DSLR) - acceptable ISO: 800

Canon 5D 'classic': 1600 ? (the most tempting upgrade for me)

Nikon D700: 6400 ?

Sony A850: 800 ?

Pentax K-X /Sony A500 (presumably same sensor): 1600 ?

As for many other people the low light perf. is crucial to me and I just can't tell if it would be worth upgrading for two stops. I am using manual f/1.2 - f/2 lenses in those situations whenever possible so I can't do much better lenswise with my current camera.

Any thoughts appreciated,Georg (the other)

[Class A]

I'd like to know from your experience if you could rate the following cameras only regarding low light performance.

You didn't include the K-7?
ISO 1600 seems to be more than acceptable.

I can see the allure of a 5D classic, but you seem to have some nice lenses you would have to replace. Also, I'd make sure I learn everything about the shortcomings of a model (such as the 5D classic) that I don't know. We Pentaxians seem to be very aware of the weaknesses of Pentax cameras but other products have their issues too.

[pingflood]

btw guys, if price is an issue, take a look at the Nikon D700, cheaper than the Mkii and you could quickly assemble a usable lens base for not much more than what pentax would set you back.

its only 12 mp but who cares! :P

If price is an issue, don't forget the Sony A850. Remains to be seen how high ISO really performs (though some people found that the A900 could perform rather well with a different RAW converter), but it's twice the pixels of the D700 which should make for some mindblowing large prints.

[dylansalt]

My current camera is the K10D and when I shoot at 1600 iso and put the image through noiseware I get a very good print at A4.

Would I get a better result printing at A4 form a shot taken with a Nikon D700, 5D mk11 or 1d mk111 or would I only notice differences on my monitor and printed A3 and above?

Regards

Dylan

[wasim_altaf]

Pentax is not "Subaru", I think its more like Hundai

I don't know, Hyundai today is a far better car than it used to be, as solid as they come. Quite a bargain too, compared to equivalent Japanese sedans.

I view Pentax more like Saabs (before GM butchered it). Saab prices drop by as much as $10k (depending on model) within 6 months after release, and keeps depreciating fast after that. But it's a fun car to drive.

[pingflood]

My current camera is the K10D and when I shoot at 1600 iso and put the image through noiseware I get a very good print at A4.

Would I get a better result printing at A4 form a shot taken with a Nikon D700, 5D mk11 or 1d mk111 or would I only notice differences on my monitor and printed A3 and above?

Regards

Dylan

I seriously doubt it. Unless you're cropping heavily or printing larger you'd likely see next to no benefit in an actual print at A4 size.

If you're shooting at 3200 or 6400 you probably will notice since the K10D/K20D IMO pretty much falls apart after 1600.

[Samsungian]

Interesting Point with Saab.

I go the car dealer auctions and its stunning the huge volume of Hyundai available that hammer for thousands less than "book". Hyundai are well made cars, but when they are taken back due to loan defaults they retain very little of their residual value versus new purchase price or used book price.

Hyundai make Great cars that have horrible resale or residual value.

I don't know, Hyundai today is a far better car than it used to be, as solid as they come. Quite a bargain too, compared to equivalent Japanese sedans.

I view Pentax more like Saabs (before GM butchered it). Saab prices drop by as much as $10k (depending on model) within 6 months after release, and keeps depreciating fast after that. But it's a fun car to drive.