pentax for weddings...

emr · 10-19-2009, 05:31 AM

Many posters in this thread with flash problems seem to have genuine Pentax flashes. How are Metz and Sigma flashes in this regard: the same, better, worse?

(I actually have had a Metz 48 for some time now, but since we've just exited the season of almost constant light, I haven't really used it much yet.)

dylansalt · 10-19-2009, 08:38 AM

I have also obtained really great results albeit with a bit of work with my Pentax

The Nikon flash system requires no extensive knowledge - it just gets it right and better than any other system.

I tested a Nikon 300 and walked around the shop firing away with an 18-200 vr and 50mm lens - portrait, close ups, direct/bounce - downloaded the pics to my laps and beyond a small curve adjustment and usm - every pic was spot on - to be quite honest it was a revelation.

In fact due to the nature of some of my shoots I will be getting a Nikon just for the flash system as it will cut my post production time in half.

These shots were with the 18-200 vr with direct flash.

ChainbreakR · 10-19-2009, 09:56 AM

Flash aside, I'm considering Pentax AF in low light almost unacceptable. I don't know how much better the K-7 is from the K20d, but I'd be afraid to take this thing to a wedding...

unkabin · 10-20-2009, 08:45 PM

I'll chime in. I bought a K10D with a flash, early this year, my entry into Pentax. I had previously shot with Minolta and Canon flashes. When I set up the Pentax, I was floored by the poor flash performance. I was sure I was missing something, something was broken, something. Nope. That's Pttl on the k10D. If event photography is your deal, I don't think Pentax is your brand. Not unless the K7 is a significant leap forward.

**Ash** · 10-20-2009, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by ChainbreakR

Flash aside, I'm considering Pentax AF in low light almost unacceptable. I don't know how much better the K-7 is from the K20d, but I'd be afraid to take this thing to a wedding...

That's quite pessimistic.
Prior to the K-7, Pentaxians have been doing weddings just fine... including me, with a *ist D, K100D, K10D and K20D - all working fine for me each time.

Eruditass · 10-20-2009, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by Ash

That's quite pessimistic.
Prior to the K-7, Pentaxians have been doing weddings just fine... including me, with a *ist D, K100D, K10D and K20D - all working fine for me each time.

Agreed, why don't you take it to one casually and take some candids first. I did and the pictures came out great.

**Ash** · 10-20-2009, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by unkabin

I'll chime in. I bought a K10D with a flash, early this year, my entry into Pentax. I had previously shot with Minolta and Canon flashes. When I set up the Pentax, I was floored by the poor flash performance. I was sure I was missing something, something was broken, something. Nope. That's Pttl on the k10D. If event photography is your deal, I don't think Pentax is your brand. Not unless the K7 is a significant leap forward.

More pessimism!
Or perhaps expecting the gear to shoot everything just right straight out of the box with no thought about settings?

Peter's got it right - I'm with him on the fact that once you've mastered the gear, it will get the results you want every time with minimal tweaking if you know the nuances of each cam/lens/flash combination.

I have been pleased with P-TTL and for my events have not had to resort to manual flashing at any time bar once (when conditions were consistent and I was happy with the results at one output setting).

unkabin · 10-20-2009, 10:11 PM

I've shot several indoor events with the K10D and the 540 flash, and I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that a lack of familiarity with the camera is the problem. I have become familiar with the K10D and the 540 flash, very familiar out of absolute and sometimes frustrating necessity, and I've had exactly that same experience that Gooshin describes in the original post. I have to anticipate and compensate constantly for the inability of the flash to produce consistent results. I can get reasonable results (here are a batch from a family member's bridal shower) MobileMe Gallery

But it is such work compared to other flash systems I've used. By contrast, here are a few from a wedding reception, shot with a Canon 40D. MobileMe Gallery

The lighting is much different here, but it captured the mixed lighting very well. And, importantly, I was good and drunk at the time (I was not the hired photographer).

Fortunately, the camera and flash just worked, without a lot of need for the user to squeeze and wring results out of it.

The lesson here being, 3 out of 4 drunk photographers choose Canon.

But seriously, it did just work. As did my old Minolta and auto-thyristor. In my experience, I just can't say the same for the k10D and pttl. I'm a hobbyist, happy with Pentax for a number of reasons, but pttl ain't one of 'em.

**Ash** · 10-20-2009, 10:34 PM

OK, maybe I'm easily pleased - and haven't experienced Canikon to know any better...
Or I'm just lucky...

There are lots of people here who despise P-TTL for its frustrating and unpredictable inconsistency. I don't want to appear as if I'm railroading or devaluing those expressed views - I must just be finding that for each of my events (and I've done many in P-TTL), I've not missed all that many shots for flash trouble (I have, though, for low-light AF hunting).

Or perhaps I just don't want to believe it all so I don't lose confidence in the P-TTL that I've been relying on for all this time...

F-Stop · 10-20-2009, 10:57 PM

My only question, unkabin, between the 2 galleries is how the flash was fired. The first series you're dealing with high ceilings, more direct flash and the WB is off on several shots. The 2nd second you have a low ceiling reception and it looks as though it's all bounced thus giving better results. I'm not picking apart your technique, just the differences in shooting environments and how one would cope. My strobe skills are still being honed mostly with diffusion and bounce work so as of now your shots look similar to what I would take. Because of that I'm reluctant to take on anymore wedding or portrait work. It's too frustrating when lighting is gone wrong plus I hate editing photos to fix big mistakes.

unkabin · 10-21-2009, 06:02 AM

Yeah, I wish I had had both cameras at one event, but I never did. I sold the Canon for the Pentax. My reasons for that are many, and having a lot to do with legacy lenses and the cost of good glass vs. my budget. I also like build quality and for my more "artistic" photography, I love the manual-focus primes.

I did bounce the Canon of a low white ceiling. For that reason, and for the nice golden light that was coming in from the windows in half those shots, it's not a fair comparison. It's just the best I have. For the K10D event, I had a white bounce card taped to the flash, ala "a better bounce card." Peter Greggs ABBC ABetterBounceCard for Canon Flash Nikon Flash and Digital Cameras | abbc is abetterbouncecard for canon flash nikon flash and better flash photographyMine was just a piece of printer paper, but it did the job. Had I had the Canon at that venue, I don't think the pics would have looked any different. What shows there is the tough conditions, the limits of my skill, and a single, camera-mounted flash. I do believe, however, that I would have had to work less and had a few more keepers.

I don't want to give the impression that the Canon is foolproof, but it didn't often seem affected by things like white table cloths and wedding gowns, things that often seem to be too much for my K10D. Some people have mentioned lens selection as a factor in the pttl system. They may be right. I only have the kit zoom, since I only use that kind of lens at these occasional events that I do free for family and friends. But, in fairness, I only had the Canon 17-85 kit, too, which though versatile is not a great lens.

I've also used Minolta/Sony's digital ttl flash, and didn't have the level of inconsistency I find in pttl, either. I've heard the k7 is a big improvement, and I hope so, since I'm sure within a year or so, that will be my camera.

alexeyga · 10-21-2009, 06:24 AM

Though I'm not a big wedding shooter (only one so far and I'm not planning to become one), I'm with Nikon now and I do quite a lot of flash photography, so i'll pitch in as well...

I had the same K10 + 540 setup before switching, and although I can't say that I found the restults from Pentax setup unacceptable, I find it rather striking how predicable and reliable the results are from my Nikon setup... It just works.. point... every single shot is on the money, just like dylansalt said, from the first shot.... With my old Pentax setup, I had to do a few test shots before nailing the setting for any particular frame, it was a "normal" workflow...

But this topic is about the camera-mounted flash... Now, try feeding a couple or more, off-the camera flashes in the wireless TTL mode...

Peter Zack · 10-21-2009, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by Ash

That's quite pessimistic.
Prior to the K-7, Pentaxians have been doing weddings just fine... including me, with a *ist D, K100D, K10D and K20D - all working fine for me each time.

Ash I have to agree. I mean really are we looking for point and shoot cameras? Do we want a monkey to hit the shutter button while we stay home watching football?

I'm going to begin my rant now. You've been far more diplomatic than I.

I really think many of these comments are a commentary on experience and skill of the photographer, much more than the camera in both AF and P-TTL or whatever these "issues" are. I've been shooting weddings on and off since the mid 1980's. Much of that time as my primary income. Trust me the AF system with the LX or 6x7 sucked. You had to keep turning the lens barrel to get the stupid thing to focus. Same for the Canon and Nikons of that era.

Is the AF perfect? Nope but you need to know how to work with it. Same for the P-TTL. Yesterday I was sorting a wedding that was shot indoors completely. Rained like crazy all day. But we had several cool indoor locations for the entire shoot. 85% flash shots and crappy light. 893 images fired in total between a K10 and a K20D. No kidding I missed focus on 6-7 shots and knew it at the time so they were duplicated. The flash shots all look good and I use a large diffuser on both flashes so I'm shooting manual most of the time. But P-TTL can do the job if you want to work with it.

So I'm going to pi$$ some people off here but sorry I don't care.
I read this stuff all the time about the poor equipment and how it sucks blah blah. Guess what? Same crap is posted on other brand forums about the other gear from people who "think" they know what they are doing.

So:
1) why are you here if that is the case? Too cheap to buy a "real" camera?
2) shooting weddings with a Kit lens or doing a few here and there for family. Doesn't count.
3) If you are a real "Pro" then why don't you shoot Canikon? Don't you know they are the only real cameras?

If you want to shoot weddings and have the camera do all the work for you, then fine. Join all the others that shoot 6 weddings a season, all in Jpeg, pass the bride a CD and wait till the next gig.

But if you have practiced and learned the skills (and there are a lot of them) to shoot weddings at a professional level, then these minor complaints are not an issue. You know how to manually focus and manually operate a camera with out the manual in your left hand. You can do just about anything with the gear because you have practiced and prepared for just about any situation. You don't break a sweat when something does not work automatically and perfectly on it's own.

Frankly I wish the stuff was worse, it would seperate the Pros from the Wanna be's

alexeyga · 10-21-2009, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by unkabin

Some people have mentioned lens selection as a factor in the pttl system. They may be right. I only have the kit zoom, since I only use that kind of lens at these occasional events that I do free for family and friends. But, in fairness, I only had the Canon 17-85 kit, too, which though versatile is not a great lens.

The biggest catch of the flash-photography (unless you're doing something special with a specific DOF, etc..), is that with a flash, the el-cheapo kit lens is just as good as the 20X more expensive big 2.8 chunk of glass... So that's is not a factor...

Peter Zack · 10-21-2009, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by alexeyga

The biggest catch of the flash-photography (unless you're doing something special with a specific DOF, etc..), is that with a flash, the el-cheapo kit lens is just as good as the 20X more expensive big 2.8 chunk of glass... So that's is not a factor...

That was a joke right? You muuuust be kidding. You may not find much difference in the exposures but in every other way this is not a lens for serious shooting situations like a wedding or event.

The Kit lens is fine for what it is but don't ever confuse it with a serious prime or an FA*28-70mm, DA16-45mm, DA*16-50mm and a few others I could name.

I have one in my bag as an emergency backup but I've never had to use it and thank goodness I haven't.

10-19-2009, 08:38 AM	#32
dylansalt Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Durban, South Africa Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,052	I have also obtained really great results albeit with a bit of work with my Pentax The Nikon flash system requires no extensive knowledge - it just gets it right and better than any other system. I tested a Nikon 300 and walked around the shop firing away with an 18-200 vr and 50mm lens - portrait, close ups, direct/bounce - downloaded the pics to my laps and beyond a small curve adjustment and usm - every pic was spot on - to be quite honest it was a revelation. In fact due to the nature of some of my shoots I will be getting a Nikon just for the flash system as it will cut my post production time in half. These shots were with the 18-200 vr with direct flash. Last edited by dylansalt; 01-16-2010 at 12:59 AM.

10-21-2009, 06:35 AM	#43
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	Originally posted by Ash That's quite pessimistic. Prior to the K-7, Pentaxians have been doing weddings just fine... including me, with a ist D, K100D, K10D and K20D - all working fine for me each time. Ash I have to agree. I mean really are we looking for point and shoot cameras? Do we want a monkey to hit the shutter button while we stay home watching football? I'm going to begin my rant now. You've been far more diplomatic than I. I really think many of these comments are a commentary on experience and skill of the photographer, much more than the camera in both AF and P-TTL or whatever these "issues" are. I've been shooting weddings on and off since the mid 1980's. Much of that time as my primary income. Trust me the AF system with the LX or 6x7 sucked. You had to keep turning the lens barrel to get the stupid thing to focus. Same for the Canon and Nikons of that era. Is the AF perfect? Nope but you need to know how to work with it. Same for the P-TTL. Yesterday I was sorting a wedding that was shot indoors completely. Rained like crazy all day. But we had several cool indoor locations for the entire shoot. 85% flash shots and crappy light. 893 images fired in total between a K10 and a K20D. No kidding I missed focus on 6-7 shots and knew it at the time so they were duplicated. The flash shots all look good and I use a large diffuser on both flashes so I'm shooting manual most of the time. But P-TTL can do the job if you want to work with it. So I'm going to pi$$ some people off here but sorry I don't care. I read this stuff all the time about the poor equipment and how it sucks blah blah. Guess what? Same crap is posted on other brand forums about the other gear from people who "think" they know what they are doing. So: 1) why are you here if that is the case? Too cheap to buy a "real" camera? 2) shooting weddings with a Kit lens or doing a few here and there for family. Doesn't count. 3) If you are a real "Pro" then why don't you shoot Canikon? Don't you know they are the only real cameras? If you want to shoot weddings and have the camera do all the work for you, then fine. Join all the others that shoot 6 weddings a season, all in Jpeg, pass the bride a CD and wait till the next gig. But if you have practiced and learned the skills (and there are a lot of them) to shoot weddings at a professional level, then these minor complaints are not an issue. You know how to manually focus and manually operate a camera with out the manual in your left hand. You can do just about anything with the gear because you have practiced and prepared for just about any situation. You don't break a sweat when something does not work automatically and perfectly on it's own. Frankly I wish the stuff was worse, it would seperate the Pros from the Wanna be's Last edited by Peter Zack; 10-21-2009 at 06:41 AM.*

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10-19-2009, 05:31 AM	#31
emr Guest	Many posters in this thread with flash problems seem to have genuine Pentax flashes. How are Metz and Sigma flashes in this regard: the same, better, worse? (I actually have had a Metz 48 for some time now, but since we've just exited the season of almost constant light, I haven't really used it much yet.)

10-19-2009, 09:56 AM	#33
ChainbreakR Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Photos: Gallery Posts: 93	Flash aside, I'm considering Pentax AF in low light almost unacceptable. I don't know how much better the K-7 is from the K20d, but I'd be afraid to take this thing to a wedding...

10-20-2009, 08:45 PM	#34
unkabin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Moorhead, MN Posts: 176	I'll chime in. I bought a K10D with a flash, early this year, my entry into Pentax. I had previously shot with Minolta and Canon flashes. When I set up the Pentax, I was floored by the poor flash performance. I was sure I was missing something, something was broken, something. Nope. That's Pttl on the k10D. If event photography is your deal, I don't think Pentax is your brand. Not unless the K7 is a significant leap forward.

10-20-2009, 08:58 PM	#35
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by ChainbreakR Flash aside, I'm considering Pentax AF in low light almost unacceptable. I don't know how much better the K-7 is from the K20d, but I'd be afraid to take this thing to a wedding... That's quite pessimistic. Prior to the K-7, Pentaxians have been doing weddings just fine... including me, with a *ist D, K100D, K10D and K20D - all working fine for me each time.

10-20-2009, 09:00 PM	#36
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by Ash That's quite pessimistic. Prior to the K-7, Pentaxians have been doing weddings just fine... including me, with a *ist D, K100D, K10D and K20D - all working fine for me each time. Agreed, why don't you take it to one casually and take some candids first. I did and the pictures came out great.

10-20-2009, 09:02 PM	#37
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by unkabin I'll chime in. I bought a K10D with a flash, early this year, my entry into Pentax. I had previously shot with Minolta and Canon flashes. When I set up the Pentax, I was floored by the poor flash performance. I was sure I was missing something, something was broken, something. Nope. That's Pttl on the k10D. If event photography is your deal, I don't think Pentax is your brand. Not unless the K7 is a significant leap forward. More pessimism! Or perhaps expecting the gear to shoot everything just right straight out of the box with no thought about settings? Peter's got it right - I'm with him on the fact that once you've mastered the gear, it will get the results you want every time with minimal tweaking if you know the nuances of each cam/lens/flash combination. I have been pleased with P-TTL and for my events have not had to resort to manual flashing at any time bar once (when conditions were consistent and I was happy with the results at one output setting).

10-20-2009, 10:11 PM	#38
unkabin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Moorhead, MN Posts: 176	I've shot several indoor events with the K10D and the 540 flash, and I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that a lack of familiarity with the camera is the problem. I have become familiar with the K10D and the 540 flash, very familiar out of absolute and sometimes frustrating necessity, and I've had exactly that same experience that Gooshin describes in the original post. I have to anticipate and compensate constantly for the inability of the flash to produce consistent results. I can get reasonable results (here are a batch from a family member's bridal shower) MobileMe Gallery But it is such work compared to other flash systems I've used. By contrast, here are a few from a wedding reception, shot with a Canon 40D. MobileMe Gallery The lighting is much different here, but it captured the mixed lighting very well. And, importantly, I was good and drunk at the time (I was not the hired photographer). Fortunately, the camera and flash just worked, without a lot of need for the user to squeeze and wring results out of it. The lesson here being, 3 out of 4 drunk photographers choose Canon. But seriously, it did just work. As did my old Minolta and auto-thyristor. In my experience, I just can't say the same for the k10D and pttl. I'm a hobbyist, happy with Pentax for a number of reasons, but pttl ain't one of 'em.

10-20-2009, 10:34 PM	#39
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	OK, maybe I'm easily pleased - and haven't experienced Canikon to know any better... Or I'm just lucky... There are lots of people here who despise P-TTL for its frustrating and unpredictable inconsistency. I don't want to appear as if I'm railroading or devaluing those expressed views - I must just be finding that for each of my events (and I've done many in P-TTL), I've not missed all that many shots for flash trouble (I have, though, for low-light AF hunting). Or perhaps I just don't want to believe it all so I don't lose confidence in the P-TTL that I've been relying on for all this time...

10-20-2009, 10:57 PM	#40
F-Stop Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Paradise, Newfoundland, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 303	My only question, unkabin, between the 2 galleries is how the flash was fired. The first series you're dealing with high ceilings, more direct flash and the WB is off on several shots. The 2nd second you have a low ceiling reception and it looks as though it's all bounced thus giving better results. I'm not picking apart your technique, just the differences in shooting environments and how one would cope. My strobe skills are still being honed mostly with diffusion and bounce work so as of now your shots look similar to what I would take. Because of that I'm reluctant to take on anymore wedding or portrait work. It's too frustrating when lighting is gone wrong plus I hate editing photos to fix big mistakes.

10-21-2009, 06:02 AM	#41
unkabin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Moorhead, MN Posts: 176	Yeah, I wish I had had both cameras at one event, but I never did. I sold the Canon for the Pentax. My reasons for that are many, and having a lot to do with legacy lenses and the cost of good glass vs. my budget. I also like build quality and for my more "artistic" photography, I love the manual-focus primes. I did bounce the Canon of a low white ceiling. For that reason, and for the nice golden light that was coming in from the windows in half those shots, it's not a fair comparison. It's just the best I have. For the K10D event, I had a white bounce card taped to the flash, ala "a better bounce card." Peter Greggs ABBC ABetterBounceCard for Canon Flash Nikon Flash and Digital Cameras \| abbc is abetterbouncecard for canon flash nikon flash and better flash photographyMine was just a piece of printer paper, but it did the job. Had I had the Canon at that venue, I don't think the pics would have looked any different. What shows there is the tough conditions, the limits of my skill, and a single, camera-mounted flash. I do believe, however, that I would have had to work less and had a few more keepers. I don't want to give the impression that the Canon is foolproof, but it didn't often seem affected by things like white table cloths and wedding gowns, things that often seem to be too much for my K10D. Some people have mentioned lens selection as a factor in the pttl system. They may be right. I only have the kit zoom, since I only use that kind of lens at these occasional events that I do free for family and friends. But, in fairness, I only had the Canon 17-85 kit, too, which though versatile is not a great lens. I've also used Minolta/Sony's digital ttl flash, and didn't have the level of inconsistency I find in pttl, either. I've heard the k7 is a big improvement, and I hope so, since I'm sure within a year or so, that will be my camera.

10-21-2009, 06:24 AM	#42
alexeyga Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 838	Though I'm not a big wedding shooter (only one so far and I'm not planning to become one), I'm with Nikon now and I do quite a lot of flash photography, so i'll pitch in as well... I had the same K10 + 540 setup before switching, and although I can't say that I found the restults from Pentax setup unacceptable, I find it rather striking how predicable and reliable the results are from my Nikon setup... It just works.. point... every single shot is on the money, just like dylansalt said, from the first shot.... With my old Pentax setup, I had to do a few test shots before nailing the setting for any particular frame, it was a "normal" workflow... But this topic is about the camera-mounted flash... Now, try feeding a couple or more, off-the camera flashes in the wireless TTL mode...

10-21-2009, 06:37 AM	#44
alexeyga Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 838	Originally posted by unkabin Some people have mentioned lens selection as a factor in the pttl system. They may be right. I only have the kit zoom, since I only use that kind of lens at these occasional events that I do free for family and friends. But, in fairness, I only had the Canon 17-85 kit, too, which though versatile is not a great lens. The biggest catch of the flash-photography (unless you're doing something special with a specific DOF, etc..), is that with a flash, the el-cheapo kit lens is just as good as the 20X more expensive big 2.8 chunk of glass... So that's is not a factor...

10-21-2009, 06:54 AM	#45
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	Originally posted by alexeyga The biggest catch of the flash-photography (unless you're doing something special with a specific DOF, etc..), is that with a flash, the el-cheapo kit lens is just as good as the 20X more expensive big 2.8 chunk of glass... So that's is not a factor... That was a joke right? You muuuust be kidding. You may not find much difference in the exposures but in every other way this is not a lens for serious shooting situations like a wedding or event. The Kit lens is fine for what it is but don't ever confuse it with a serious prime or an FA28-70mm, DA16-45mm, DA16-50mm and a few others I could name. I have one in my bag as an emergency backup but I've never had to use it and thank goodness I haven't.