[heatherslightbox]

Forgive me if this is completely stupid, but I want to make sure that my thinking is correct on this.

In comparing a crop camera to a FF camera, this is my thought pattern in justifying spending the money to eventually get FF. The FF has:

Bigger pixels/sensor -->more light to work with-->greater dynamic range-->less blinkies on LCD (blowouts)-->easier PP-->better results = happier/less frustrated photographer

I'm also thinking that with the greater dynamic range that I'd need to rely less on techniques like HDR to get the results I want.

Am I right, wrong, or somewhere in between on this?

BTW, I've already formulated a plan for saving up enough so that a 5DII in my camera bag can become a reality either late this year or early next year (depending on how aggressively I can save).

Heather

[PentaxPoke]

Forgive me if this is completely stupid, but I want to make sure that my thinking is correct on this.

In comparing a crop camera to a FF camera, this is my thought pattern in justifying spending the money to eventually get FF. The FF has:

Bigger pixels/sensor -->more light to work with-->greater dynamic range-->less blinkies on LCD (blowouts)-->easier PP-->better results = happier/less frustrated photographer

I'm also thinking that with the greater dynamic range that I'd need to rely less on techniques like HDR to get the results I want.

Am I right, wrong, or somewhere in between on this?

BTW, I've already formulated a plan for saving up enough so that a 5DII in my camera bag can become a reality either late this year or early next year (depending on how aggressively I can save).

Heather

Heather,
This is only true if the manufacturer actually does make the pixel site larger, as a tradeoff for lower resolution. If the FF sensor keeps the same pixel site size, (pixel pitch) then there is no benefit in DR or high ISO. That is why some of the FF cameras that have very high resolution, are not significantly better in ISO than the best APS-C. The D700 and the D3 are pretty low resolution cameras (only 12MP on a FF sensor) The ISO and DR are excellent because they can make the photosites larger because the resolution is relatively low.

[ma318]

I guess it will depend on the cameras you are comparing.

According to this test below, the DR difference between the Nikon D700 (12.1MP FF) and Pentax K-x (12.4MP aps-c) are very small. The D700 has 1 stop ISO advantage as expected due to larger sensor size. But when you take the camera and lens combination together and evaluate the ISO advantage, they will be equal.

Falk Lumo

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/71896-low-noise-be...uals-zero.html


Looks like someone is thinking selling his 5DII here.

http://photo.net/pentax-camera-forum/00VTyl

[Samsungian]

The longer you wait, the better the 5D Mark II deal gets

Canon recently dropped msrp $200, down from $2699 to $2499 and now adorama is tossing in a genuine canon spare battery and 16gb Extreme IV too. A better deal than B&H has. No additional free battery

The price war has begun, though its seems the free~bees make some deals sweeter then others.





ICA5DM2E Canon EOS-5D Mark II Digital SLR Camera Body Kit,- USA Warranty - with Sandisk 16GB Extreme IV CF Memory Card, Slinger Camera Bag - Additional Canon LP-E6 Battery


And if you'd like to read up on the changes and lots detailed info concerning 5DII here's Canon's own White Paper link:


http://www.usa.canon.com/uploadedimages/FCK/Image/White%20Papers/EOS%2050D%2...20II%20WP2.pdf

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Last edited by Samsungian; 01-25-2010 at 09:15 PM. Reason: added link

[Clicker]

I was planning on moving to FF but then someone showed me their D1MkIV, i think i'm staying cropped and just working on my lens collection and hoping the EFS selection expands.

As for the 5D MkII, there's a new software next month bringing it on par with the 7D's video capabilities, so that should add even more gut wrenching decisions about which format to choose.

My personal feelings at this stage is stick to your guns.

In the meantime, my Pentax will continue to expand also because i can't find anything lighter as a travel system.

[heliphoto]

I was planning on moving to FF but then someone showed me their D1MkIV, i think i'm staying cropped and just working on my lens collection and hoping the EFS selection expands.

As for the 5D MkII, there's a new software next month bringing it on par with the 7D's video capabilities, so that should add even more gut wrenching decisions about which format to choose.

My personal feelings at this stage is stick to your guns.

In the meantime, my Pentax will continue to expand also because i can't find anything lighter as a travel system.

Just to be clear the the 1D bodies don't work with EF-S lenses. From Canon's site, "The EOS-1D Mark IV is compatible with all Canon lenses in the EF lineup (excluding EF-S lenses)"

It'll be interesting to see that software update for the 5DII.

[Samsungian]

5DII next firmware details are "uncertain". Its due to announce next month or so.

Here's the masterpage of what was rumors and then became facts concerning the
5DII, my favorite canon rumours site, look to his "Jan 18th post":


Canon EOS 5Dmk2 DSLR


Here's the official canon announcement at same site posted on 10-20-09 concerning firmware upgrade:

Press Info - London, 20 October 2009 – Canon today announces that it is currently developing a firmware update to the EOS 5D Mark II to enable the recording of high definition 1080p video at 24 and 25fps. The decision to develop new firmware to support these features has been taken following feedback received from cinematographers and photographers.
Introduced in September 2008, the multi award-winning EOS 5D Mark II was the first DSLR product to offer full frame 1080p HD video recording, opening up a multitude of new creative possibilities for photo journalists, news photographers and amateur filmmakers. Since then, Canon has continued to develop its groundbreaking EOS Movie functionality, firstly with the firmware update to the EOS 5D Mark II that enabled manual exposure control, and more recently by introducing a choice of video recording frame rates with the EOS 7D and EOS-1D Mark IV.

Canon currently expects the firmware update to be made available during the first half of 2010. An announcement regarding details of the update and its availability will be made closer to the release date



And as I'm tossing out 5D Mark II links, here's my favorite 5DII video shooter site:

http://philipbloom.co.uk/


edit, I added info again...

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Last edited by Samsungian; 01-26-2010 at 06:52 AM.

[asdf]

Here's something from PopPhoto (April 09),

"But if you require extremely high-resolution images, if you make really big enlargements, or if you want great leeway in cropping deep into an image, you'll want a high-megapixel full-frame DSLR. Given the current state of the technology, APS-C cameras reach a point of diminishing returns at around 14-15MP.
To put it simply, full-frame is becoming the new medium-format."

Going for a low-res FF camera--unless you're being sponsored by Canon or Nikon, or want very wide and really fast lenses (~f/1.8)--is irrational, IMHO.

[heatherslightbox]

Very interesting...hmm...

The deal is that I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting with the 40D. The main thing that's missing that I don't already have on it is a few more megapixels. I could solve the problem fairly inexpensively by simply upgrading to a 50D and have plenty of MPs to work with, but with this next upgrade in body, I want to make sure I'm getting something that's going to last me for several years, so if I stick with a cropper, it would most likely be the 7D that I'd be upgrading to. As for the 5DII, I really don't need that many MPs, but that's what comes with it.

I'd be curious to see how the dynamic range compares between the 5DII and 7D.

Heather

[pingflood]

You'll find that a lot of people enjoy sitting around speculating, quoting dxomark numbers, yada yada, but rarely get out and use the equipment they're talking about (if at all). I am shooting a crop camera and a FF camera with similar megapixel count (15.1 vs 16.6); even though the FF rig is 5+ years old now, it still blows the 50D away by quite a margin in every way except pixel density (nice when you need "reach"). I have no idea how much of a difference there is in DR, resolution etc on paper, but I do know that my FF cam consistently produces files that look better, process better, and print better than anything I can do with the 50D.

A lot of people have found similar results when comparing a 40D to the older 5D, again two cameras with similar pixel count. Just ask anyone who's added a FF camera to their crop one and I suspect you'll get the same answers.

(edit: I did look at the 5D II when I was shopping for FF since it was only a few hundred dollars more than most of the used 1Ds II bodies back then, but eventually decided I wanted the rock solid AF performance of the bigger and older body. Sometimes it's a big monster to carry around and the LCD is pretty tiny by modern standards, but I still wouldn't trade for a 5DII... have considered it at times but I never seem to be able to give the 1 up.)

[Clicker]

Just to be clear the the 1D bodies don't work with EF-S lenses. From Canon's site, "The EOS-1D Mark IV is compatible with all Canon lenses in the EF lineup (excluding EF-S lenses)"

It'll be interesting to see that software update for the 5DII.

I know i still want cheaper and lighter Canon lenses for use on the 7D

[Cosmo]

I really hate crop DSLRs purely due to the crop factor. I hate how lenses aren't their true angle of view and how the depth of field is reduced.

If I ever get another digital, it'll be FF, I'll never get another aps-c digital.

[Samsungian]

K20D will most likely be my last aps-c crop format dslr too.

Just the bigger viewfinder alone was worth the cost of admission for me & the wife.
I've yet to suffer one lens failure with Nikon or Canon lenses.
Everything I bought new focuses fast and is a pleasure to use.
I bought in heavily before the early 2009 price increases due to poor dollar yen trade that hit Canikon.

My 5'5" wife has no problems using D700 or 5D Classic.
I don't get what all the fuss is about Canon dslrs being too big.
Are all Pentaxians like 4'11" or so ???

Canon camera controls are not intuitive compared to Pentax.
But, check this out, my cameras came with instructions manuals which de-mystified the cameras.
Now its no big deal to use Canon, Nikon and Pentax still.

[mithrandir]

I prefer the increased reach of the cropped factor on my telephotos. New research being done to use memory chips as sensors will improve both light handling and resolution of APS-C sensors in the near future.

[ma318]

I think if one of the major brands can make a light-weight sub $1000 FF camera with 24MP that has the DR and ISO performance similar to the K-X and decent AF performance will just clean up a major portion of the DSLR market in one single stroke. Then there would be no need for most of us to agonize over which format to buy or having to pay for two different format bodies. You can use it as a full frame and you can use it as an 10MP APS-C by either cropping the image in PP or crop right in the sensor. Canon and Nikon probably would not do it first even if this is technically possible because it would cannibalize too much of their low to mid level products. But there is definitely incentive for the other ones to do so. With the way technology is moving along, I think it is a matter of when, not if.