[Big G]

Hi all,

There was some heated conversation kicking off over in the K-5 thread in the 'news and rumours' section, and rather than derail the topic when the question of the EOS 7D's sensor and "soft images" came up, I offered to post 100% crops of sharp images that I had taken on my 7D. I haven't had time to locate decent subject matter, but I have been able to take some quick and dirty shots this evening dispelling this pointless argument.

Firstly, this thread is not to bash my K20D or Pentax, it is to prove that the RAW images out of the 7D are not soft and that there is nothing defective or underperforming of the 7D's sensor. I have two systems, the K20D and the EOS 7D with the same lens for both bodies, so I believe this qualifies me to have a much more credible opinion than the majority of fanboys and the inexperienced armchair experts that perpetrate anecdotal rubbish around the internet forums (particularly DPReview).

My test is not scientific, it's just a simple comparisons of images. It is not to test white balance, autofocus or colour reproduction. To keep the test consistent, I have assumed the following settings for both cameras:

- Use the same lens for both bodies, the Sigma 10-20mm EX DC f/4-f/5.6
- Both lenses set to 20mm
- Manual mode
- f/8
- ISO 200
- 3 second exposure
- Tripod mounted
- Mirror lockup
- Manual focus in live view, although both camera's autofocus systems confirmed focus
- White balance set to auto, but corrected / matched for both images in PP (including tint)
- NO sharpening applied
- NO noise reduction applied
- NO other tweaks, corrections or changes made in Adobe Camera Raw or photoshop other than converting colour profile to sRGB for web presentation

Here are the images reduced to 1000 pixels wide to demonstrate the scene. Apologies for the mess, currently painting and renovating parts of the living room.

Pentax K20D:



Canon EOS 7D:



Pentax K20D 100% crop:



Canon EOS 7D 100% crop:



As you can clearly see, both cameras exhibit the same level of "sharpness" (both clearly need sharpened in PP) when the same lens is used with the same settings. The EOS 7D has the same level of sharpness as my K20D at the same given settings.

Now, I'm going back to taking photographs instead of talking a good game .

[JohnBee]

In my own tests(shot from RAW), the 7D showed a significant IQ advantages in terms of resolution over the K20D shot at 70mm f/8. There certainly weren't any signs of softness either.
I doubt there ever was an issue to begin with, though it is always possible that something on-board(a setting etc) played a part in creating softer images.

[Miguel]

Thanks for posting the comparison images.
I, too, have the same two bodies and have performed image comparisons to help me make some judgements. I've used the same Tamron 17-50 f2.8 model lens. I've also used the same M42 SMC Takumar lens on both bodies. My setup has been similar to yours to maintain identical controls. And I've used Lightroom v3 to process dozens of the same images from both cameras.

I haven't found any sharpness differences between both cameras. What I have found is that the 7D images are a lot noisier on screen at all ISOs including 3200. I have had to apply about 40-60% more noise reduction in LR3 to produce acceptable screen-based results for the 7D image over the K20D image. The perceivable result on my calibrated monitors is that the 7D image is more smeary and less attractive.

That said, and this is the more interesting part, the printed output from the 7D files, especially at higher ISOs (>800), is generally better than the K20D files.

I purchased the 7D to shoot sports and birds. As you both know, its FPS and AF systems are pretty excellent. But I've been gaining more respect for the rendering systems of the K20D. It seems like a bargain, still.

M

[Big G]

Thanks guys.

For reference, I took another shot with the EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-f/5.6. Same as above but I've changed the aperture to f/5.6 and used a focal length of 24mm. At A3 viewing sizes, you can't even see the text around the bar code, let alone read it. Here is a 100% crop of the area:

(this has had standard sharpening applied in Noise Ninja)



If that's not enough sharpness or detail for you, then consider something other than photography.

Here is the original reduced to 1000 pixels wide for reference:

[PentaxPoke]

I agree that any doubts about the 7D sharpness is a myth. Some people do not understand the concept of sharpness as applied to the DSLR. The following is an excellent summary about why some people think a camera is not "sharp." Canon Professional Network - Pixels and Image Size

Later in the article it specifically addresses high resolution sensors and sharpness. The 7D is 18MP.

[pingflood]

Yeah, and then there is the "lolz Canon turns to mush at higher ISO"... I think the 7D does extremely well.

Pulled sharpening to 0 in LR here... ISO 3200, 100-400 lens.



100% crop


With standard tweaks applied in LR


Final shot after editing, not bad for a cropper @ 3200.

[JohnBee]

Very impressive on that 3200 shot!
I had no idea the 7D was capable of this.
Most intriguing considering the resolution.

How does it do with ISO6400?

[Big G]

ISO 6400 100% crop as follows - see my first post for the 100% crop originals @ ISO 200.

(this HAS had noise reduction applied with sharpening)

[JohnBee]

ISO 6400 100% crop as follows - see my first post for the 100% crop originals @ ISO 200.

(this HAS had noise reduction applied with sharpening)

Very nice indeed.
Canon did a good job with this one. - Respect!

[pingflood]

I would say that 3200 looks excellent "out of the box" while 6400 cleans up well enough to make a respectable large print from. 12800 is one of the fake ISOs but out of morbid curiosity I snapped some shots there and even those clean up well enough to make an acceptable 8x10. Stunning performance for a crop camera.

[Big G]

Oh definitely, ISO 3200 is no problem for the 7D and even 6400 cleans up nicely.

[dylansalt]

This statement (from the link provided by PentaxPoke) below is imo the cause for most "soft" photo's coming from these high mp aps-c sensors - especially from newbies with incorrect technique;

Even after making these changes, images from more recent EOS professional digital cameras can still look softer than those from earlier models. This is because recent models have more pixels, which means that pixel size is smaller (11.5µm on the EOS-1D; 7.2µm on the EOS-1Ds Mark II). Smaller pixels are more sensitive to camera shake, as a smaller movement will cause the image to move across more pixels. You need to hold the camera steadier - ideally on a tripod.

Therefore imo a 12mp aps-c sensor for a newbie will on average give him/her better results.

And surely a FF with 12mp sensor (larger pixel size)will yield sharper pics (with less pp required) on average, especially with non is lenses at slower shutter speeds?

[Big G]

Possibly, but this thread isn't about "what about this, what about that" - this is directly addressing the idiotic people that say "ah, wouldn't touch a 7D, the images are too soft" or "the sensor in the 7D is rubbish" which is just unfounded nonsense.

However, I have done a lot of digging in and around the images that people have reported to be soft and I have drawn the following conclusions:

- Inferior optics.

Canon aren't responsible for what lenses you put on your camera, however do think that Canon's "kit" lenses aren't exactly making the most of the 7D.

- Badly taken shots

The amount of 100% crops of BIF where the subject was too far away for the focal length or in poor conditions is astounding; the photographs were simply rubbish. I've also seen plenty underexposed "soft" photos or photos taken in fully automatic mode which screams "newbie" to me as the user isn't controlling the aperture leading to wide open shots exhibiting a far from perfect DoF or a shutter speed that didn't cut the mustard for the type of shot they were trying to take.

Simply put, you could have given them a 1DS Mk3 with a top lens and the photos still would have been rubbish.

- Autofocus errors

There have been definite cases of "soft" shots NOT because of sensor issues, but because of focus errors. MF adjustments have sorted a lot of these out, but there are a handful of cases where a return of the body to Canon for repair or replacement cured the issue.

The 7D has brought 1D qualities to the mass public and people are expecting the 7D to make miracles. If you suck at taking photos, your photos will still suck; never trust a 7D user who uses fully automatic shooting. As a result, the forums are awash with inexperienced newbies who can voice their woes (valid or not) to an audience of millions. These woes pass onto other forums third hand, and before you know, people are spouting the problems as gospel without ever having used the camera itself.

Hell, if I had a pound for every time someone on dpreview asked about something basic that's answered in the manual, i'd be rich.

[dylansalt]

Nice reply.

I did use and test the 7D extensively and found that the files needed quite extensive sharpening (double than what I custom use for the K10D) to bring out the best.

It's a beautiful camera and if the K5 does not equal the current high end offerings from Nikon/Canon aps-c/FF - I will be purchasing from one of them