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03-24-2012, 06:39 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by TOUGEFC Quote
falconeye,
Would the D800E get a slightly different score than the D800?
No

DxO won't even measure it, I am pretty sure. A camera w/o an AA filter at all could score differently, but not one with AA filters only turned 90°. If DxO measures it, you can savely assume to see sample variation.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
So in DX-mode with the D800 we are back with the 80 points that the D7000 scores (if I understand this correct)?
Yes.

But there is a caveat. DxO scores are based on Non-equivalent cameras. Which makes sense because equivalent cameras should score the same (or they would not be equivalent).

But it means that in order to benefit from the better score, you need to use non-equivalent lenses (bigger glass). Like a 85mm/1.4 rather than a smaller 50mm/1.4. If you do, you benefit from the 15 extra points in the DxO score.

But you could decide to use an equivalent lens (like the 85/2). You then get the score between(*) the D7000 and the D800 at the price of a D7000 lens. (A DX crop with the 50/1.4 would give the same score as the D7000.)

So, you don't automatically see the full boosted DxO score of the D800. You need to pair it with bigger lenses and it is partly the extra light gathering provided by the bigger lens which gives you the extra score points.

So, the real benefit is that you go a choice.

___
(*) It is between the D7000 and D800 scores because the SNR measurement (sports score) will be at the D7000 level while the dynamic range scores would still be at the D800 level (you'll have lower equivalent ISO regardless of lens).

03-25-2012, 03:47 AM   #32
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It has to be said, the D800 is a big game changer; I'm going to add one to my kit.

I always said "I'd like a full frame version of the K-5 / D7000" sensor but was poo poo'd for it on here .
03-25-2012, 04:08 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Yes.

But there is a caveat. DxO scores are based on Non-equivalent cameras. Which makes sense because equivalent cameras should score the same (or they would not be equivalent).

But it means that in order to benefit from the better score, you need to use non-equivalent lenses (bigger glass). Like a 85mm/1.4 rather than a smaller 50mm/1.4. If you do, you benefit from the 15 extra points in the DxO score.

But you could decide to use an equivalent lens (like the 85/2). You then get the score between(*) the D7000 and the D800 at the price of a D7000 lens. (A DX crop with the 50/1.4 would give the same score as the D7000.)

So, you don't automatically see the full boosted DxO score of the D800. You need to pair it with bigger lenses and it is partly the extra light gathering provided by the bigger lens which gives you the extra score points.

So, the real benefit is that you go a choice.

___
(*) It is between the D7000 and D800 scores because the SNR measurement (sports score) will be at the D7000 level while the dynamic range scores would still be at the D800 level (you'll have lower equivalent ISO regardless of lens).
So a big sensor when making the same pictureframe gets more light and thus a bigger score when pixels are the same. So why wouldn't we want a large 4/t\3th (28x21mm with 26 megapixel, 5888*4416 pixels), large APS-H (30x20mm with 26,4 megapixel 6300x4200 pixels) or a square (24,2x24,2mm with 26 megapixel, 5100x5100 pixels and still with working mirror) sensor sized sensor in our new K-1 and benefit of better image quality but not stretching it all the way to 75 MB large RAW files.
03-26-2012, 10:34 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Interestingly, though, I've heard from the Nikon community
Photos and Information ->

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO

ISO at Various PDR Values

and so on...

03-27-2012, 01:01 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
and so on...
Don't take DPR too seriously, they are lames
03-27-2012, 04:11 PM   #36
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Would there be any reason why I would want a bigger, heavier, much more expensive MF camera as opposed to the 800E?
I can really only think of shallower DOF, but I am ignorant when it comes to formats larger than APS-C.
03-28-2012, 02:12 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Would there be any reason why I would want a bigger, heavier, much more expensive MF camera as opposed to the 800E?
Yes.
You could throw away all your K-mount lenses and start afresh with MF lenses.

Seriously, I wonder why people keep bringing up the 645D as "the Pentax FF format" or as an "upgrade path". One might as well switch to any other manufacturer with a mount where you cannot use your K-mount lenses anymore.

03-28-2012, 04:57 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Would there be any reason why I would want a bigger, heavier, much more expensive MF camera as opposed to the 800E?
I can really only think of shallower DOF, but I am ignorant when it comes to formats larger than APS-C.
Well I'll try and tackle it.the D800 of course makes the added value less.
but for medium format there is a look that a FF cannot achieve. Certainly it is like moving from apsc to ff. It's not just the narrower DOF that is available that is a benefit, it's also the higher aperture possible before diffraction kicks in for landscape shooters for instance. the comparison i see when looking at examples of the D800 vs the 645D (which is the most common comparison) the D800 looks flat in comparison. Both are excellent but the 645 is just that much better IMO. That small improvement though comes at a high cost, but it always has come at a high cost in film days Medium format was dramatically more expensive to shoot versus even the best Nikon kit. Now it's not quite as dramatic. Because a large percentage of 645 users will still be buying lenses on the used market that are dead cheap compared to what the newest lenses cost a full kit in 645 will cost about the same as a good quality D800 kit with similar quality lenses. Depending on what and how you are going to shoot then impacts your choice. Certainly for reportage type work the Nikon will be the better choice. Now that the tethering option is there for the 645D for studio the 645 likely has an edge due to how it renders for portraiture. For landscape the 645 still has a small edge as well IMO.
This ignores the rest of the MF market too where there will still be some pretty dramatic differences. an 80 MP hassy will still crush a Nikon in the studio, but at enormous cost as well. If you need it for what your client needs (and pays for) you will still shoot the hassy (as a matter of fact if you shoot hassy you probably also run a Canon or Nikon system, and possibly a leica system as well using each for what it is best at).
Looking at the 645D however as the enthusiast upgrade path (which will be a big chunk of Nikon's business - I know 3 just where I work who have one on order and I work in a hotel hardly the highest paid industry on earth). none of them would even look at a 645D because it's not generalist enough.

the real issue for people moving to a D800/800E will be getting the best out of the system. guys who shoot MF are long used to shooting with the best technique to get the most out of their system/ Luminous Landscape has a good article on the new Nikon's pointing this out. A lot of apsc and FF users will not have shot like this most of the time (if ever) whereas MF guys are the opposite they will shoot like this most of the time with some exceptions

All that blather said really it will take some time to see how it stands up in real life comparisons this summer

Nikon-D800-or-D800e

QuoteQuote:
– Use the best lenses. The following are the current lenses that Nikon recommends for use with the 800e...

AF-S NIKKOR 14–24 mm f/2.8G ED
AF-S NIKKOR 24–70 mm f/2.8G ED
AF-S NIKKOR 70–200 mm f/2.8G ED VR II
AF-S NIKKOR 16–35 mm f/4G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 24–120 mm f/4G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 200–400 mm f/4G ED VR II
AF-S NIKKOR 24 mm f/1.4G ED
AF-S NIKKOR 35 mm f/1.4G
AF-S NIKKOR 85 mm f/1.4G
AF-S NIKKOR 200 mm f/2G ED VR II
AF-S NIKKOR 300 mm f/2.8G ED VR II
AF-S NIKKOR 400 mm f/2.8G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 500 mm f/4G ED VR
AF-S NIKKOR 600 mm f/4G ED VR
AF-S Micro NIKKOR 60 mm f/2.8G ED
AF-S VR Micro-Nikkor 105 mm f/2.8G IF-ED

Will other lenses work? Of course they will. But the above lenses, when used with proper shooting technique, will produce optimum image quality.

– Use the optimum aperture. Apertures above about f/11 introduce diffraction and effectively act as an unintentional AA filter

– Use a really solid tripod and head

– Use Live View, or mirror lock up with a remote release or self timer.

– Use critical focusing, using single point AF and LV focus magnification (up to 23X)

– When shooting hand-held use lenses with VR when possible, and also a high shutter speed... 2 or 3 over the reciprocal of the focal length, not the 1/focal length of olden days

– Use the lowest possible ISO, and if shooting JPGs turn off high ISO noise reduction even at low ISO

Anyone who has done studio, landscape and nature photography with a medium format system will wonder what the fuss is about. These are mostly standard techniques that are used when extremely high resolution gear is used and the utmost image quality is desired. But, these are not typically the day-to-day shooting techniques that 35mm DSLR shooters are used to.

Of course you may be able to obtain and take advantage of the D800 and especially the D800e's higher resolving power in regular day-to-day shooting (the above are suggestions, not rules). But the payoff for having purchased a 36 MP camera, and one which doesn't have an AA filter as well, will only be visible when the techniques and tools mentioned above are all brought into play appropriately.
I think the opening in the market for a Pentax FF is offering a lower res more user friendly FF from a standpoint of getting the best out of it.Without a lens line like the Nikon one above there is no point putting out a FF that won't look as good side by side due to the lenses available. As the FF lens line expands a higher level model can always be introduced
03-28-2012, 05:50 AM   #39
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Where are some high grade sample photos of the D800?
03-28-2012, 06:00 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Certainly it is like moving from apsc to ff.
Not in case of D800 vs 645D IMO. The difference between APS-C and FF is much more dramatic, 645D sensor is not large enough.
03-28-2012, 06:02 AM   #41
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A lot of the guys drooling and thinking about jumping ship will be in for a rude awakening when they price Nikon's top end glass.

The first 2 on the list are near $1900- $2000 each. Even on ebay used ones go for $1400-$1500

AF-S NIKKOR 14–24 mm f/2.8G ED
AF-S NIKKOR 24–70 mm f/2.8G ED

300mm Nikkor...top end...$5200....Cheap models $1300

AF-S NIKKOR 600 mm f/4G ED VR....$9000+

Before I loaded up with Pentax gear I had to decide if I was going Nikon D800 or not. After deciding I did not want to spend $24,000 for a few bodies and a handful of top end Nikon glass I settled on Pentax.

Very happy with my Pentax system. I use high grade LTD Pentax glass, a Voigt and some high grade Sigma lenses.

Last edited by slackercruster; 03-28-2012 at 10:02 AM.
03-28-2012, 06:21 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by slackercruster Quote
A lot of the guys drooling and thinking about jumping ship will be in a rude awakening when they price Nikon's top end glass.

The first 2 on the list are near $1900- $2000 each. Even on ebay used ones go for $1400-$1500

AF-S NIKKOR 14–24 mm f/2.8G ED
AF-S NIKKOR 24–70 mm f/2.8G ED

300mm Nikkor...top end...$5200....Cheap models $1300

AF-S NIKKOR 600 mm f/4G ED VR....$9000+

Before I loaded up with Pentax gear I had to decide if I was going Nikon D800 or not. After deciding I did not want to spend $24,000 for a few bodies and a handful of top end Nikon glass I settled on Pentax.

Very happy with my Pentax system. I use high grade LTD Pentax glass, a Voigt and some high grade Sigma lenses.
this is the big issue, if you want to get the best out of that sensor it will cost big bucks. crtainly you could use it with lesser lenses but you will not get what the body is capable of
a 645D system can easily be assembled for these kind of prices so then it's down to what do you want to do with the camera
03-28-2012, 06:22 AM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by slackercruster Quote
Where are some high grade sample photos of the D800?
Imaging Resource has samples up for both

Imaging Resource "Comparometer"
03-28-2012, 06:31 AM   #44
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Canon seems to be happy with what they got...

Canon: 22 million pixels is enough | News | TechRadar
03-28-2012, 06:38 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
this is the big issue, if you want to get the best out of that sensor it will cost big bucks. crtainly you could use it with lesser lenses but you will not get what the body is capable of
a 645D system can easily be assembled for these kind of prices so then it's down to what do you want to do with the camera
Sure no doubt Nikon is top end stuff. (generally speaking) But it also cost lots of dough. The Pentaxian looking for greener pastures should ask if their current system is holding them back? If so, then move on to Nikon or whatever will get the job done.

From what I see of Nikons D800 sample photos, they only excell at magnification. If you are not printing poster size prints or heavy cropping, then I don't see the worth in spending the $.

Here is a shot one of our members 'Cameron' took with a 6mp *ist. Sure he had all things in his favor, lighting, tripod, 300mm top end Pentax glass, mirror lockup. But anytime I think of how my Pentax gear is holding me back...I pull up his 6mp photo.

Last edited by slackercruster; 05-03-2012 at 07:29 AM.
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