Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58/2; rebadged Helios

tvdtvdtvd · 06-24-2018, 09:36 PM

Seems like a lot of bother to get a few extra nickels from a Helios 58/2.

Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58/2

Last edited by tvdtvdtvd; 06-24-2018 at 10:01 PM.

**BigMackCam** · 06-25-2018, 02:27 AM

At least the listing clearly states it's a copy based on a 44M. There are plenty of Helios lenses being sold on eBay as things they're not, by even less scrupulous sellers...

D1N0 · 06-25-2018, 04:33 AM

Biotar is the optical design. So technically this is correct. it doesn't state it is a CZJ lens.

**BigMackCam** · 06-25-2018, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

Biotar is the optical design. So technically this is correct. it doesn't state it is a CZJ lens.

No, the trim ring (2nd photo) says Carl Zeiss Jena, when it's clearly a Helios... but at least the seller is honest about that.

tvdtvdtvd · 06-25-2018, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

No, the trim ring (2nd photo) says Carl Zeiss Jena, when it's clearly a Helios... but at least the seller is honest about that.

Yep. Click through the photos and you'll see the nameplate ring emblazoned with CZJ. A nice touch but also rather nonsensical that
they included a factory logo. As far as I'm aware, CZJ didn't have a factory logo. I'm not familiar with the logo on this lens; is it made
up? It looks like a variation of the Valdal or ZOMZ logo.

**BigMackCam** · 06-25-2018, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd

I'm not familiar with the logo on this lens; is it made
up? It looks like a variation of the Valdal or ZOMZ logo.

I think it's made up... Rather like the lens

The CZJ logo can be found here:

https://www.zeiss.com/corporate/int/history/company-history/the-zeiss-logo.html

stevebrot · 06-25-2018, 10:36 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd

A nice touch but also rather nonsensical that
they included a factory logo. As far as I'm aware, CZJ didn't have a factory logo.

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I think it's made up... Rather like the lens

I don't know why the Zeiss logo page linked above does not include it, but my CZJ Pancolar 50/2 has the flag in circle mark (some sources say tree). ~~My understanding is that its origins are pre-WWII and are in reference to the some aspects of the optical glass manufacturing in Jena which were conducted on a floating island on a small pond.~~ Most '50s vintage CZJ lenses bear the mark as do many from the '60s. Edit: A later post on this thread correctly established that the mark is a stylized "1Q" standing for "Erste Qualität" (first quality) as part of a grading scheme used at the time.

FWIW, "Carl Zeiss Jena" was the label for pre-WWII product as well as for those after the war.

Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 06-28-2018 at 08:55 PM.

tvdtvdtvd · 06-25-2018, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

my CZJ Pancolar 50/2 has the flag in circle mark

Nice! Thanks for that, I honestly didn't know.

**BigMackCam** · 06-25-2018, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

my CZJ Pancolar 50/2 has the flag in circle mark (some sources say tree). My understanding is that its origins are pre-WWII and are in reference to the some aspects of the optical glass manufacturing in Jena which were conducted on a floating island on a small pond. Most '50s vintage CZJ lenses bear the mark as do many from the '60s.

Good catch, Steve!

micromacro · 06-25-2018, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd

Seems like a lot of bother to get a few extra nickels from a Helios 58/2.

Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58/2

With the median monthly pension amount in Ukraine of $60-70 that $30 are not exactly a few extra nickels for someone. Sadly.

antipattern · 06-28-2018, 06:02 PM - **1 Like**

I read that flag and circle simply stand for 1Q - or first quality/Erste Qualität. These were supposedly quality checked copies of these lenses.

You can find it on Meyer lenses of the same vintage, too:

stevebrot · 06-28-2018, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by antipattern

I read that flag and circle simply stand for 1Q - or first quality/Erste Qualität. These were supposedly quality checked copies of these lenses.

You can find it on Meyer lenses of the same vintage, too:

That makes sense. I had not seen it on other than Zeiss. So another myth laid to rest

A quick Google search on "Erste Qualität" turned up multiple references.

Steve

06-24-2018, 09:36 PM	#1
tvdtvdtvd Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,665	Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58/2; rebadged Helios Seems like a lot of bother to get a few extra nickels from a Helios 58/2. Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58/2 Last edited by tvdtvdtvd; 06-24-2018 at 10:01 PM.

06-25-2018, 08:15 AM	#6
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,695	Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd I'm not familiar with the logo on this lens; is it made up? It looks like a variation of the Valdal or ZOMZ logo. I think it's made up... Rather like the lens The CZJ logo can be found here: https://www.zeiss.com/corporate/int/history/company-history/the-zeiss-logo.html Last edited by BigMackCam; 06-25-2018 at 10:47 AM.

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06-25-2018, 02:27 AM	#2
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,695	At least the listing clearly states it's a copy based on a 44M. There are plenty of Helios lenses being sold on eBay as things they're not, by even less scrupulous sellers...

06-25-2018, 04:33 AM	#3
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Biotar is the optical design. So technically this is correct. it doesn't state it is a CZJ lens.

06-25-2018, 04:48 AM	#4
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,695	Originally posted by D1N0 Biotar is the optical design. So technically this is correct. it doesn't state it is a CZJ lens. No, the trim ring (2nd photo) says Carl Zeiss Jena, when it's clearly a Helios... but at least the seller is honest about that.

06-25-2018, 08:04 AM	#5
tvdtvdtvd Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,665 Original Poster	Originally posted by BigMackCam No, the trim ring (2nd photo) says Carl Zeiss Jena, when it's clearly a Helios... but at least the seller is honest about that. Yep. Click through the photos and you'll see the nameplate ring emblazoned with CZJ. A nice touch but also rather nonsensical that they included a factory logo. As far as I'm aware, CZJ didn't have a factory logo. I'm not familiar with the logo on this lens; is it made up? It looks like a variation of the Valdal or ZOMZ logo.

06-25-2018, 10:36 AM - 1 Like	#7
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd A nice touch but also rather nonsensical that they included a factory logo. As far as I'm aware, CZJ didn't have a factory logo. Originally posted by BigMackCam I think it's made up... Rather like the lens I don't know why the Zeiss logo page linked above does not include it, but my CZJ Pancolar 50/2 has the flag in circle mark (some sources say tree). ~~My understanding is that its origins are pre-WWII and are in reference to the some aspects of the optical glass manufacturing in Jena which were conducted on a floating island on a small pond.~~ Most '50s vintage CZJ lenses bear the mark as do many from the '60s. Edit: A later post on this thread correctly established that the mark is a stylized "1Q" standing for "Erste Qualität" (first quality) as part of a grading scheme used at the time. FWIW, "Carl Zeiss Jena" was the label for pre-WWII product as well as for those after the war. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 06-28-2018 at 08:55 PM.

06-25-2018, 11:17 AM	#8
tvdtvdtvd Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,665 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot my CZJ Pancolar 50/2 has the flag in circle mark Nice! Thanks for that, I honestly didn't know.

06-25-2018, 11:27 AM	#9
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,695	Originally posted by stevebrot my CZJ Pancolar 50/2 has the flag in circle mark (some sources say tree). My understanding is that its origins are pre-WWII and are in reference to the some aspects of the optical glass manufacturing in Jena which were conducted on a floating island on a small pond. Most '50s vintage CZJ lenses bear the mark as do many from the '60s. Good catch, Steve!

06-25-2018, 11:34 AM	#10
micromacro Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,722	Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd Seems like a lot of bother to get a few extra nickels from a Helios 58/2. Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 58/2 With the median monthly pension amount in Ukraine of $60-70 that $30 are not exactly a few extra nickels for someone. Sadly.

06-28-2018, 06:02 PM - 1 Like	#11
antipattern Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Berlin, Germany Photos: Albums Posts: 232	I read that flag and circle simply stand for 1Q - or first quality/Erste Qualität. These were supposedly quality checked copies of these lenses. You can find it on Meyer lenses of the same vintage, too:

06-28-2018, 08:52 PM	#12
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by antipattern I read that flag and circle simply stand for 1Q - or first quality/Erste Qualität. These were supposedly quality checked copies of these lenses. You can find it on Meyer lenses of the same vintage, too: That makes sense. I had not seen it on other than Zeiss. So another myth laid to rest A quick Google search on "Erste Qualität" turned up multiple references. Steve