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01-23-2010, 07:19 PM   #61
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First off--I know it's been a while since I've come around...

On the Canon vs. Pentax ergonomics...I will admit that the it was a bit of a learning curve jumping from a K20 to a 40D--Pentax definitely has a more intuitive layout. With time though, I've gotten used to it and feel comfortable with the ergonomics. The only thing that still doesn't really make sense to me is the positioning of the on-off switch--I'd much rather have it on top coupled with the shutter button (like Pentax) or at least near it. As for the grip size, the 40D is not too big, nor is it too small--just right.

Even though I have a 40D, one of the things that drew me to Canon to begin with was the difference in AF between it and the Pentax. Until I picked up the 40D for the first time, I didn't realize how fast AF could be. From the way people seem to be talking, I would most likely be blown away by the AF on a 7D (I haven't gotten my hands on one, so I can't say for sure).

Shooting in RAW and handling most of my PP through LR2, I find that I'm getting excellent results and I'm beginning to wonder if going FF is really a necessary step for me. Perhaps an eventual upgrade to a 7D would work just as well for me and be good bit less expensive. I think I just need to get my hands on a FF body and see for myself...

Just my 2¢...
Heather

01-23-2010, 07:52 PM   #62
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I guess Canon must have heard people like you Heather, because they did move the on-off switch on the 7D to the top. I agree it is better there.

I also agree that I like the Pentax ergonomics a bit better, but that is probably not fair because I have been using Pentax for so long. That just can't make up for the incredible AF speed and accuracy on the 7D. Ring-USM lenses are also really something that assists in that speed, but you probably know that already.
01-23-2010, 07:54 PM   #63
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Hey, Heather - it's good to see you around ...
01-23-2010, 08:18 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
I guess Canon must have heard people like you Heather, because they did move the on-off switch on the 7D to the top. I agree it is better there.
OK--that settles it. If my next body upgrade winds up being another cropper, then a 7D it will be!

In Canon-land, there's a big debate going on about whether or not there will be a 60D now that the 7D is out. I can't say one way or the other, but if Canon were to either continue the x0D line or come out with something completely new to fit in between the T1i and 7D, then I would definitely consider it (in addition to the 7D) if the on-off switch is on top.

Heather

01-23-2010, 09:33 PM   #65
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Canon has ALWAYS struggled with ergonomics, in my opinion. They've never gotten better.

Nikon has always been great with ergonomics.

And both Canon's and Nikon's menu interfaces blow.

In my opinion, from my day-long rendevous with my new K-7, Pentax has a usable menu system (though not perfect, but I will learn tricks like I did with my Nikon D40 to be quicker), and the ergonomics of the body are (for me) as close to perfect as I can get without having a camera custom-made to my hands. Everything is easily reachable, at least when I need to adjust ISO or exposure while still looking through the (gorgeous) viewfinder.
01-23-2010, 09:40 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by brofkand Quote
Canon has ALWAYS struggled with ergonomics, in my opinion. They've never gotten better.

Nikon has always been great with ergonomics.

And both Canon's and Nikon's menu interfaces blow.

In my opinion, from my day-long rendevous with my new K-7, Pentax has a usable menu system (though not perfect, but I will learn tricks like I did with my Nikon D40 to be quicker), and the ergonomics of the body are (for me) as close to perfect as I can get without having a camera custom-made to my hands. Everything is easily reachable, at least when I need to adjust ISO or exposure while still looking through the (gorgeous) viewfinder.
I don't find the mechanical ergonomics of my old k-7 to be any better than the 7D. In fact, the 7D feels much better in my hands. (That may be because I have larger hands.) I did find the menu system to be a bit easier to understand in the k-7, but as I said, I had a k10d and k20d before that, so part of that may be because I was used to it.
01-24-2010, 07:20 AM   #67
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I would love a 7D, but I'll have to wait until the price goes down in a year or two. I got a 40d in late august for telephoto use and like how it fits my hand but really miss the green button. I would spot meter on what I wanted to be in zone V, hit the green button and BAM. Like having auto-manual sort of. No bracket button and only +- 2 EV compensation bug me too. I can't fault the AF though. What struck me about the canon is how much misinformation about canon (and others I'm sure) on the internet over the years. I have yet to see a "plastic image" for example. I had to send my 40d back to adorama (it was a refurb) so I will see what happens if it can't be fixed I guess I'll get a new 50d as they don't have any 40d refurbs left.

01-24-2010, 09:42 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by brofkand Quote
Canon has ALWAYS struggled with ergonomics, in my opinion. They've never gotten better.

Nikon has always been great with ergonomics.

And both Canon's and Nikon's menu interfaces blow.

In my opinion, from my day-long rendevous with my new K-7, Pentax has a usable menu system (though not perfect, but I will learn tricks like I did with my Nikon D40 to be quicker), and the ergonomics of the body are (for me) as close to perfect as I can get without having a camera custom-made to my hands. Everything is easily reachable, at least when I need to adjust ISO or exposure while still looking through the (gorgeous) viewfinder.
When's the last time you used a Canon DSLR, and which one? Recent models have a far better menu system, divided into logical sections, and with the ability to create a custom menu to hold the most commonly used things.

Also, while Pentax does have great ergonomics, I found the XXD and 1D Canons to be wonderful to shoot with for long periods of time. I think a lot of people pick up another DSLR and go "ick, different" and write it off as "bad ergonomics".
01-25-2010, 12:59 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
I think a lot of people pick up another DSLR and go "ick, different" and write it off as "bad ergonomics".
I also think pride and vanity have a certain amount to do with it. It's part of the human psyche, if Mr W has invested X dollars in system Y, he's not going to turn round and say something good about system Z.
01-25-2010, 02:43 PM   #70
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Pride and vanity have nothing to do with my opinions. I have very little invested in any system (until last week when I ordered a K-7).

I owned a Canon Rebel 2000, and used a Rebel XTi, T1i, and 50D. All were pretty bad when it came to button placement, menu system (except the 50D; they used spare processor cycles to add transitions), and shutter sound. I hate the mechanical sound of Canon's shutters (at least the ones I've used).

Nikon has good ergonomics, a poor menu system, and good button placement.

Pentax has good ergonomics, a poor menu system and good button placement. I think Pentax's menu system is easier to navigate when compared to Nikon's (no scrolling forever to find out what you wanted to change was on the next page), but Canon's is probably the worst. Even higher end bodies like the 50D have way too much fishing around in menus to do anything.

Might it have changed in the past year or so? Probably, but looking at images of Nikon's and Canon's latest bodies I don't see much improvement. Admittedly, I haven't used the new bodies.
01-25-2010, 04:54 PM   #71
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You would be one of the exceptions, one can't help but generalise when it comes to human nature.





QuoteOriginally posted by brofkand Quote
Pride and vanity have nothing to do with my opinions. I have very little invested in any system (until last week when I ordered a K-7).

I owned a Canon Rebel 2000, and used a Rebel XTi, T1i, and 50D. All were pretty bad when it came to button placement, menu system (except the 50D; they used spare processor cycles to add transitions), and shutter sound. I hate the mechanical sound of Canon's shutters (at least the ones I've used).

Nikon has good ergonomics, a poor menu system, and good button placement.

Pentax has good ergonomics, a poor menu system and good button placement. I think Pentax's menu system is easier to navigate when compared to Nikon's (no scrolling forever to find out what you wanted to change was on the next page), but Canon's is probably the worst. Even higher end bodies like the 50D have way too much fishing around in menus to do anything.

Might it have changed in the past year or so? Probably, but looking at images of Nikon's and Canon's latest bodies I don't see much improvement. Admittedly, I haven't used the new bodies.
01-25-2010, 10:08 PM   #72
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I completely understand your position. People tend to say "this is better than that," when really they are only saying that because they are trying to rationalize their purchase.

I have always bought what I feel is best for me, regardless of the status quo. I bought a Mac 5 years ago, long before they were "cool" to own. I bought a Palm Pre over an iPhone because it is a better phone for me. I bought a Pentax K-7 because from the reviews and real-world testing I've read and done, it's a better choice for me. And I think I was right, at least in the three days or so I've owned the camera.

I really hope Canon, Nikon, Pentax, or some other company will contract Frog Design or Apple or some other hugely popular industrial design company to build a DSLR from the ground up; design, menus, buttons, etc. I think cameras would be much better.
01-27-2010, 04:06 AM   #73
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I posted this on another forum but as I'm still a pentax fan and still love the Pentax community i'll post it here too:

I ordered a 7D last week and it arrived Monday morning. I was a bit worried about the focusing and sharpness as it has been widely reported that some 7D's have had issues. Thankfully this baby is sharp as ever and the focus is spot on. Amazing camera, huge step up from the K10D which is to be expected.

- Focusing is lightning quick, it's just insanely fast and accurate. I've actually just sat here a few times focusing on random objects, hard to believe it's such a massive step up.
- The button configuration will take a bit of getting used to but I already love the large wheel on the back. It's so much nicer to scroll through photos than to press buttons. I'm not a huge fan of 'second function' buttons but I guess it's better than burying it within a menu, and with the canon UI there is a lot of burying to be had.
- It feels really good in your hands. I was tempted to get a K7 after some playing around with one, and the size of the 7D worried me a little but it feels like it was built for my hands, which aren't big I might add.
- The screen on the back is actually useful! It's colour reproduction and clarity is actually a really good indication of how your shot turned out.
- The K10D is known for it's awesome ISO100 quality, but go past ISO800 and you're in trouble. While i was working on some shots with the 7D I noticed some grain, and I thought to myself "Gee that's a little grainy", little did I know I was viewing an ISO1600 shot not an ISO100 shot... It's magical and I honestly feel more 'free' as stupid as that sounds. I don't have to worry at all about going to ISO 1600 - 3200.
- The metering also blows me away....It seems to just produce perfectly exposed shots with little effort.
- Movie mode is a lot of fun. I didn't purchase this camera for movie mode but it's definitely something i'm going to explore and use.

As a whole I'm finding it to be the perfect package, I just can't fault it at all. I wholeheartedly recommend the 7D to anyone considering a purchase.

I still love Pentax I should add, my K10D served me damn well over the last couple of years and the Pentax DA* 50-135 is my favorite lens of all time, but this camera is just.... I love it. I've purchased a sigma 50-150mm f2.8 to replace my DA*, we'll see how it goes.
01-27-2010, 04:21 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jebus Quote
Amazing camera, huge step up from the K10D which is to be expected.

- Focusing is lightning quick, it's just insanely fast and accurate. I've actually just sat here a few times focusing on random objects, hard to believe it's such a massive step up.
Well you are comparing an '06 camera to an '09 camera. K20D already has AF that is much faster than K10D. k-x probably outperforms the 7d in the ISO department. Also, enjoy the lack of in-body IS.

For a few bucks more you could've had a FF Sony...

EDIT: For the slow forum members: I'm being semi-serious here. There is no need to write essays (like the one below) justifying to me your (or your parents') expenditures. I'm crawling back into the lens forum which has a smaller population of dumbasses.

Last edited by asdf; 01-27-2010 at 06:47 AM.
01-27-2010, 05:19 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by asdf Quote
Well you are comparing an '06 camera to an '09 camera. K20D already has AF that is much faster than K10D. k-x probably outperforms the 7d in the ISO department. Also, enjoy the lack of in-body IS.

For a few bucks more you could've had a FF Sony...
Haha Let me repeat the words 'TO BE EXPECTED' meaning 'The K10D is 3 years older so it's TO BE EXPECTED'. I wasn't bad mouthing the k10d at all. I loved and still love the K10D. Let me just say though that the K20D isn't 'much faster' than the K10D, the K7 isn't even as big a step as most Pentaxians wanted in the AF department, you're dreaming if you believe it was.

You sound extremely childish. The K-x is a brilliant camera, the best entry level cam there is. I've recommended it countless times. If High ISO was the only thing I cared about then I probably would have sold my K10D for a K-x. But I know High ISO isn't the be all and end all of DSLR's.

Lastly, I could have had a 5D mkII for not much more than the 7D, but I chose the 7D for a few reasons. Firstly I'm not rich, and I don't have the money to spend on top quality glass. Secondly I like the focal boost I get from having a cropped sensor. A 50-150mm on a cropped sensor is a fantastic and dare i say perfect range for me. To get that range at a constant f2.8 on a full frame body i'd be looking at a LOT more money. Too many People are obsessed with FF.

You saw a post where someone was happy with a Canon system and immediately went on the defensive. Maybe you're not so happy with your own camera system investment?

Here I was about to edit my original post to mention how childish some of the canon forums seem to be in comparison to this Pentax Forum that i've enjoyed for so long and will continue to enjoy, and along comes someone to prove that childish adults are everywhere haha .


EDIT: Oh and about the IS, I never really noticed a difference when using it. I appreciate that some people do but again I don't. Even now I will not go out of my way to buy Canon glass with IS, it doesn't interest me at all.
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