Fill flash at the beach with color film and Pentax Z-20 / PZ-20

Hyperfocal · 06-21-2017, 12:17 PM

Hello everyone,

I will be going to the beach with my family this summer and I will bring my Z-20 / PZ-20 camera.

As you can imagine, the good moments with kids, grandpa, grandma and all in-laws will be most probable when the light is worst

. So most of the time I will be shooting under the bright harsh sun.

I was planning to bring a pocket size light meter (Sekonic L-208), take a couple of incident measurements every now and then in the shadow, rely on film exposure latitude, and shoot in manual metering mode. I hope, in this way, to prevent that the sand and sky fool the camera exposure meter.

I think fill flash will be an invaluable tool in those moments, but I don't know how to make sure it will be mild enough with this camera; I fear the flash will fire at full power and ruin the shot. I checked the user manual but it is not clear to me how the flash behaves in manual metering mode. I really don't know if AP would be doable at the beach, neither how the flash will behave.

Any help is welcomed. I would not like to miss the moment... and with all the kids running, the moment will pass quite fast.

Thanks a lot.

photoptimist · 06-21-2017, 12:54 PM - **1 Like**

If you really don't want to miss the moment, the moment is not a good time to try something new (especially with film where you can't check the results). You might want to sacrifice roll of film on some mid-day test shots of people in sun and shadow at various distances. The camera's manual might also offer insights into whether manual exposure and auto-fill-flash is even possible.

Good luck!

Hyperfocal · 06-21-2017, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by photoptimist

If you really don't want to miss the moment, the moment is not a good time to try something new (especially with film where you can't check the results). You might want to sacrifice roll of film on some mid-day test shots of people in sun and shadow at various distances. The camera's manual might also offer insights into whether manual exposure and auto-fill-flash is even possible.

Good luck!

Thank you very much.

The user manual is not clear for the Manual Metering Mode. In Aperture Priority it seems doable, but I would need to use exposure compensation for the sand and sky. May be I can translate the light-meter reading into an exposure compensation value... +1 or +2 stops.

It seems that there is no shortcut, I would need to sacrifice a roll.

Thanks!

**TwoUptons** · 06-24-2017, 10:48 AM - **1 Like**

If I remember right, the flash is TTL all the time, even if the camera is in manual mode.

But I'll admit it's been a while since I had my PZ-20...

You could test the flash output without a roll of film ahead of your trip. Point the camera at a close white wall with the lens wide open and compare flash output in manual vs program. You should be able to see the difference between full and TTL. Put the lens cap on to see what full power looks like...

-Eric

Hyperfocal · 06-24-2017, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by TwoUptons

If I remember right, the flash is TTL all the time, even if the camera is in manual mode.

But I'll admit it's been a while since I had my PZ-20...

You could test the flash output without a roll of film ahead of your trip. Point the camera at a close white wall with the lens wide open and compare flash output in manual vs program. You should be able to see the difference between full and TTL. Put the lens cap on to see what full power looks like...

-Eric

Thanks for the suggestion! Unfortunately, I loaded a fresh roll yesterday

But I will try the results with manual mode, AP and program mode. Let's see what happens.
Thanks!

Johnny Rod · 06-26-2017, 08:49 AM - **1 Like**

You haven't said which flash you have so I don't know if it would work in TTL mode or not. Assuming it's capable of operating in other modes, what I normally do for fill flash is...

Set the flash for the film ISO, read off the aperture required for auto mode
In manual mode, set camera to 2 stops darker so instead of f5.6 use f11
Meter for the scene (at f11 here) and set shutter speed accordingly
SNAP!

You need to stay at or below the sync speed so you'll likely have small apertures but if you're overexposing a bit then don't fret. You'll need smallish apertures anyway if it's bright. Don't get hung up on metering exactly, it's pretty bright, do a bit of metering and go with it, film is pretty flexible as long as it isn't under-exposed. You could do the same things in manual flash mode but you need to take the distance into account, so it takes longer unless you're going to shoot a few at the same distance. Auto flash mode for fill is a bit of a pig in a poke but still works, for my limited attempts anyway. The key is that the flash light reaching the film is controlled only by the aperture, not by the shutter speed, whereas the ambient light is affected by both.

Johnny Rod · 06-26-2017, 12:56 PM - **1 Like**

PS remember the sand can be very reflective, so depending how low you are to the ground, you may not need any flash, just ambient light and add a stop or two for the shadows, depending if the sun is from the side or front, as opposed to over your shoulder

Hyperfocal · 06-26-2017, 05:41 PM

Thank you very much Johnny Rod! your advice is really helpful. I am taking notes.

The flash I will be using is the built-in one.

I totally forgot that as soon as you pop-up the flash, the shutter speed is reduced to 1/100... luckily the roll I loaded is just for testing, because yesterday I probably ruined a couple of photos (max aperture in a sunny day and 1/100).

Fill flash is not as straight forward in the Z-20 than in the K-S2. I am thinking on using Aperture Priority and modify the exposure compensation according to the incident light meter.

Thanks!

Johnny Rod · 06-27-2017, 02:27 AM

Wow, you may have fogged that one out! At a push you could get 3-4 stops over-exposed depending on the film, even 6 for B&W. I don't know how your camera works, but controlling the flash and ambient levels can be tricky if there is a lot of automation. I need to experiment a bit more with fill flash myself.
The flash duration is very short, maybe 1/10 000 of a second, so the shutter speed makes no difference - any shutter speed is much longer than the flash time, so you always get all the flash light, which is why you can only control the flash light contribution with aperture. Also any speed at or below maximum sync speed is fine. With an SLR with curtain shutters, at or below sync speed the shutter spends some time fully open. At higher speeds, the second curtain starts to close before the first one has fully opened i.e. the shutter forms an open slot that travels across the film. If you use flash then, you'll end up with an image of that slot overlaid on your picture. Leaf shutters sync at all speeds because they always open fully, they just get faster. If you struggle with over-exposure you might need an ND (neutral density) filter to cut out a few stops of light, or try shooting through a pair of sunglasses, I know someone who does that in a pinch!

Hyperfocal · 06-27-2017, 10:14 AM

Very good explanation Johnny Rod. BTW, I forgot to say that the film was ISO400

After your dissertation, fill-in flash does not seem to be as attractive as I previously thought, at least for high speed moving subjects a.k.a kids

I will use it for portraits with an ND filter and take advantage of the ISO50 film. For the rest, no flash.

06-21-2017, 12:17 PM	#1
Hyperfocal Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Madrid Posts: 35	Fill flash at the beach with color film and Pentax Z-20 / PZ-20 Hello everyone, I will be going to the beach with my family this summer and I will bring my Z-20 / PZ-20 camera. As you can imagine, the good moments with kids, grandpa, grandma and all in-laws will be most probable when the light is worst . So most of the time I will be shooting under the bright harsh sun. I was planning to bring a pocket size light meter (Sekonic L-208), take a couple of incident measurements every now and then in the shadow, rely on film exposure latitude, and shoot in manual metering mode. I hope, in this way, to prevent that the sand and sky fool the camera exposure meter. I think fill flash will be an invaluable tool in those moments, but I don't know how to make sure it will be mild enough with this camera; I fear the flash will fire at full power and ruin the shot. I checked the user manual but it is not clear to me how the flash behaves in manual metering mode. I really don't know if AP would be doable at the beach, neither how the flash will behave. Any help is welcomed. I would not like to miss the moment... and with all the kids running, the moment will pass quite fast. Thanks a lot.

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06-21-2017, 12:54 PM - 1 Like	#2
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,128	If you really don't want to miss the moment, the moment is not a good time to try something new (especially with film where you can't check the results). You might want to sacrifice roll of film on some mid-day test shots of people in sun and shadow at various distances. The camera's manual might also offer insights into whether manual exposure and auto-fill-flash is even possible. Good luck!

06-21-2017, 02:01 PM	#3
Hyperfocal Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Madrid Posts: 35 Original Poster	Originally posted by photoptimist If you really don't want to miss the moment, the moment is not a good time to try something new (especially with film where you can't check the results). You might want to sacrifice roll of film on some mid-day test shots of people in sun and shadow at various distances. The camera's manual might also offer insights into whether manual exposure and auto-fill-flash is even possible. Good luck! Thank you very much. The user manual is not clear for the Manual Metering Mode. In Aperture Priority it seems doable, but I would need to use exposure compensation for the sand and sky. May be I can translate the light-meter reading into an exposure compensation value... +1 or +2 stops. It seems that there is no shortcut, I would need to sacrifice a roll. Thanks!

06-24-2017, 10:48 AM - 1 Like	#4
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,223	If I remember right, the flash is TTL all the time, even if the camera is in manual mode. But I'll admit it's been a while since I had my PZ-20... You could test the flash output without a roll of film ahead of your trip. Point the camera at a close white wall with the lens wide open and compare flash output in manual vs program. You should be able to see the difference between full and TTL. Put the lens cap on to see what full power looks like... -Eric

06-24-2017, 03:14 PM	#5
Hyperfocal Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Madrid Posts: 35 Original Poster	Originally posted by TwoUptons If I remember right, the flash is TTL all the time, even if the camera is in manual mode. But I'll admit it's been a while since I had my PZ-20... You could test the flash output without a roll of film ahead of your trip. Point the camera at a close white wall with the lens wide open and compare flash output in manual vs program. You should be able to see the difference between full and TTL. Put the lens cap on to see what full power looks like... -Eric Thanks for the suggestion! Unfortunately, I loaded a fresh roll yesterday But I will try the results with manual mode, AP and program mode. Let's see what happens. Thanks!

06-26-2017, 08:49 AM - 1 Like	#6
Johnny Rod Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 122	You haven't said which flash you have so I don't know if it would work in TTL mode or not. Assuming it's capable of operating in other modes, what I normally do for fill flash is... Set the flash for the film ISO, read off the aperture required for auto mode In manual mode, set camera to 2 stops darker so instead of f5.6 use f11 Meter for the scene (at f11 here) and set shutter speed accordingly SNAP! You need to stay at or below the sync speed so you'll likely have small apertures but if you're overexposing a bit then don't fret. You'll need smallish apertures anyway if it's bright. Don't get hung up on metering exactly, it's pretty bright, do a bit of metering and go with it, film is pretty flexible as long as it isn't under-exposed. You could do the same things in manual flash mode but you need to take the distance into account, so it takes longer unless you're going to shoot a few at the same distance. Auto flash mode for fill is a bit of a pig in a poke but still works, for my limited attempts anyway. The key is that the flash light reaching the film is controlled only by the aperture, not by the shutter speed, whereas the ambient light is affected by both.

06-26-2017, 12:56 PM - 1 Like	#7
Johnny Rod Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 122	PS remember the sand can be very reflective, so depending how low you are to the ground, you may not need any flash, just ambient light and add a stop or two for the shadows, depending if the sun is from the side or front, as opposed to over your shoulder

06-26-2017, 05:41 PM	#8
Hyperfocal Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Madrid Posts: 35 Original Poster	Thank you very much Johnny Rod! your advice is really helpful. I am taking notes. The flash I will be using is the built-in one. I totally forgot that as soon as you pop-up the flash, the shutter speed is reduced to 1/100... luckily the roll I loaded is just for testing, because yesterday I probably ruined a couple of photos (max aperture in a sunny day and 1/100). Fill flash is not as straight forward in the Z-20 than in the K-S2. I am thinking on using Aperture Priority and modify the exposure compensation according to the incident light meter. Thanks!

06-27-2017, 02:27 AM	#9
Johnny Rod Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 122	Wow, you may have fogged that one out! At a push you could get 3-4 stops over-exposed depending on the film, even 6 for B&W. I don't know how your camera works, but controlling the flash and ambient levels can be tricky if there is a lot of automation. I need to experiment a bit more with fill flash myself. The flash duration is very short, maybe 1/10 000 of a second, so the shutter speed makes no difference - any shutter speed is much longer than the flash time, so you always get all the flash light, which is why you can only control the flash light contribution with aperture. Also any speed at or below maximum sync speed is fine. With an SLR with curtain shutters, at or below sync speed the shutter spends some time fully open. At higher speeds, the second curtain starts to close before the first one has fully opened i.e. the shutter forms an open slot that travels across the film. If you use flash then, you'll end up with an image of that slot overlaid on your picture. Leaf shutters sync at all speeds because they always open fully, they just get faster. If you struggle with over-exposure you might need an ND (neutral density) filter to cut out a few stops of light, or try shooting through a pair of sunglasses, I know someone who does that in a pinch!

06-27-2017, 10:14 AM	#10
Hyperfocal Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Madrid Posts: 35 Original Poster	Very good explanation Johnny Rod. BTW, I forgot to say that the film was ISO400 After your dissertation, fill-in flash does not seem to be as attractive as I previously thought, at least for high speed moving subjects a.k.a kids I will use it for portraits with an ND filter and take advantage of the ISO50 film. For the rest, no flash.