Benefits to Film Era Cameras?

stevebrot · 11-24-2018, 01:51 AM - **2 Likes**

I am surprised this thread is still stumbling along, but I think it is the nature of things, perhaps. After some additional thought, I considered the fact that I approach my K-3 pretty much the same way I approach even the early 1950s Mamiya Six folder perched on my fireplace mantle. I have never used "green" mode and seldom use "P" mode or auto-ISO. Even when I owned a camera with scene modes, I was never tempted to use them. Manual focus is a friend, not an adversary. All of the cameras on my shelves are basically a light-tight box attached to a lens with provision to produce a controlled exposure of a light-sensitive material in the hopes of creating a viewable image. At the most basic level, they all do the same thing.

Conversely, the last 15 years or so with a digital camera has provided the means to hone the skills from decades of film photography to a much finer edge. Quick feedback is an amazing teaching tool as is the low cost per exposure. There are things I do regularly with digital that I never learned properly with film and my confidence with both is improved as a result (e.g. macro and artificial lighting and long exposures).

Steve

**TwoUptons** · 11-24-2018, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by tuco

Matrix metering of a smart phone is a level of sophistication above a simple light meter, no? I'd think that is one reason.

Though my light meter app is more of a wide spot... it has a movable area where it takes it's readings.

I actually like that approach as it is similar to the meters some of my cameras would have had if they had meters at all, if that makes sense...

-Eric

tuco · 11-24-2018, 08:52 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by photoptimist

Two quibbles:

1. A matrix metering app will only work if you can duplicate the field of view (the equivalent focal length).

2. The beauty of matrix metering is that it is usually so good that one does not have to learn anything about exposure. And the curse of matrix metering is that it is usually so good that one does not have to learn anything about exposure! (And thus one has no clue how to handle a black cat on a black sofa.)

With a primitive light meter, one quickly learns that it makes mistakes and subsequently learns a lot about "proper" exposure in a world that is not 18% gray.

My lightmeter app has a field of view zoom. But it won't go really wide. That's not too much of a problem because it doesn't take a lot of skill to pick out a representative part of a scene.

I'd say you still have to learn to compensate with matrix metering just like an old school light meter. DSLRs have EV comp dials, right. If there are 16 stops of light in a scene and say you can typically only capture 10 stops of detail, the matrix meter should do well at picking out the middle better and not be fooled by the things that fool an old school meter. So you will still lose some shadow and highlight detail. But what if the shadow detail was the most import thing in the scene and you want to expose for that. You'd have to bracket or apply EV compensation and know how much to apply which you'd learn from experience like an old school meter.

ctrout · 11-24-2018, 10:49 PM

I don't know whether it's a problem with this thread at the forum server or if the problem lies at my end, but it shows a ninth page that I can't get to. I click on lats page or on the 9 and it always brings me to page 8. Is anyone else seeing this problem? I guess it doesn't matter, because your response will be on page 9 and I can't get there.

Edited to add:
My experiment worked. I was wondering if I posted to the thread, if it would take me to my post on page 9, and it did. Now I can see the responses that I was missing. I'm back in the game now.

stevebrot · 11-25-2018, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by ctrout

I don't know whether it's a problem with this thread at the forum server or if the problem lies at my end, but it shows a ninth page that I can't get to. I click on lats page or on the 9 and it always brings me to page 8. Is anyone else seeing this problem? I guess it doesn't matter, because your response will be on page 9 and I can't get there.

Edited to add:
My experiment worked. I was wondering if I posted to the thread, if it would take me to my post on page 9, and it did. Now I can see the responses that I was missing. I'm back in the game now.

I get that sort of strangeness every once in awhile here on PF. Short of doing what you did, I have found that closing out the browser and coming back in with a fresh session will usually set all aright.

Steve

johnha · 11-25-2018, 04:30 PM

The problem with matrix metering is you don't know what it has already accounted for (or not) - has it dealt with that bright background behind your subject or does it think you're after another effect and left it as It is? I prefer in-camera centre-weighted or spot as I know what the meter is trying to measure. With an external meter, I use either incident or multi-spot (my meter will record & display 3 readings).

**ChrisPlatt** · 11-25-2018, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by johnha

The problem with matrix metering is you don't know what it has already accounted for (or not) -
has it dealt with that bright background behind your subject or does it think you're after another effect and left it as It is?
I prefer in-camera centre-weighted or spot as I know what the meter is trying to measure.
With an external meter, I use either incident or multi-spot (my meter will record & display 3 readings).

Trying to out-think and fight automation is no fun - and a waste of time - which defeats the purpose.
I'd rather make the decisions based on my own experience.

Chris

tuco · 11-26-2018, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by ChrisPlatt

Trying to out-think and fight automation is no fun - and a waste of time - which defeats the purpose.
I'd rather make the decisions based on my own experience.

Chris

I've never seen you post a picture. How come?

**ChrisPlatt** · 11-27-2018, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by tuco

I've never seen you post a picture. How come?

I don't post photos online in this or any other forum for that matter.

Is that required for participation here, or pertinent to this discussion?

Chris

tuco · 11-27-2018, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by ChrisPlatt

I don't post photos online in this or any other forum for that matter.

Is that required for participation here, or pertinent to this discussion?

Chris

No just curious. I though you might not have a scanner or something.

Xmas · 11-28-2018, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by johnha

The problem with matrix metering is you don't know what it has already accounted for (or not) - has it dealt with that bright background behind your subject or does it think you're after another effect and left it as It is? I prefer in-camera centre-weighted or spot as I know what the meter is trying to measure. With an external meter, I use either incident or multi-spot (my meter will record & display 3 readings).

With negative film for critical shots I point my Weston at the dark area I want silver in the negative and use the zonal calculator. Matrix metering is a compromise?

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11-24-2018, 01:51 AM - 2 Likes	#121
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	I am surprised this thread is still stumbling along, but I think it is the nature of things, perhaps. After some additional thought, I considered the fact that I approach my K-3 pretty much the same way I approach even the early 1950s Mamiya Six folder perched on my fireplace mantle. I have never used "green" mode and seldom use "P" mode or auto-ISO. Even when I owned a camera with scene modes, I was never tempted to use them. Manual focus is a friend, not an adversary. All of the cameras on my shelves are basically a light-tight box attached to a lens with provision to produce a controlled exposure of a light-sensitive material in the hopes of creating a viewable image. At the most basic level, they all do the same thing. Conversely, the last 15 years or so with a digital camera has provided the means to hone the skills from decades of film photography to a much finer edge. Quick feedback is an amazing teaching tool as is the low cost per exposure. There are things I do regularly with digital that I never learned properly with film and my confidence with both is improved as a result (e.g. macro and artificial lighting and long exposures). Steve

11-24-2018, 05:14 AM	#122
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,207	Originally posted by tuco Matrix metering of a smart phone is a level of sophistication above a simple light meter, no? I'd think that is one reason. Though my light meter app is more of a wide spot... it has a movable area where it takes it's readings. I actually like that approach as it is similar to the meters some of my cameras would have had if they had meters at all, if that makes sense... -Eric

11-24-2018, 08:52 AM - 1 Like	#123
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,019	Originally posted by photoptimist Two quibbles: 1. A matrix metering app will only work if you can duplicate the field of view (the equivalent focal length). 2. The beauty of matrix metering is that it is usually so good that one does not have to learn anything about exposure. And the curse of matrix metering is that it is usually so good that one does not have to learn anything about exposure! (And thus one has no clue how to handle a black cat on a black sofa.) With a primitive light meter, one quickly learns that it makes mistakes and subsequently learns a lot about "proper" exposure in a world that is not 18% gray. My lightmeter app has a field of view zoom. But it won't go really wide. That's not too much of a problem because it doesn't take a lot of skill to pick out a representative part of a scene. I'd say you still have to learn to compensate with matrix metering just like an old school light meter. DSLRs have EV comp dials, right. If there are 16 stops of light in a scene and say you can typically only capture 10 stops of detail, the matrix meter should do well at picking out the middle better and not be fooled by the things that fool an old school meter. So you will still lose some shadow and highlight detail. But what if the shadow detail was the most import thing in the scene and you want to expose for that. You'd have to bracket or apply EV compensation and know how much to apply which you'd learn from experience like an old school meter.

11-24-2018, 10:49 PM	#124
ctrout Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Photos: Gallery Posts: 444	I don't know whether it's a problem with this thread at the forum server or if the problem lies at my end, but it shows a ninth page that I can't get to. I click on lats page or on the 9 and it always brings me to page 8. Is anyone else seeing this problem? I guess it doesn't matter, because your response will be on page 9 and I can't get there. Edited to add: My experiment worked. I was wondering if I posted to the thread, if it would take me to my post on page 9, and it did. Now I can see the responses that I was missing. I'm back in the game now.

11-25-2018, 12:22 PM	#125
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by ctrout I don't know whether it's a problem with this thread at the forum server or if the problem lies at my end, but it shows a ninth page that I can't get to. I click on lats page or on the 9 and it always brings me to page 8. Is anyone else seeing this problem? I guess it doesn't matter, because your response will be on page 9 and I can't get there. Edited to add: My experiment worked. I was wondering if I posted to the thread, if it would take me to my post on page 9, and it did. Now I can see the responses that I was missing. I'm back in the game now. I get that sort of strangeness every once in awhile here on PF. Short of doing what you did, I have found that closing out the browser and coming back in with a fresh session will usually set all aright. Steve

11-25-2018, 04:30 PM	#126
johnha Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Lancashire, UK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,155	The problem with matrix metering is you don't know what it has already accounted for (or not) - has it dealt with that bright background behind your subject or does it think you're after another effect and left it as It is? I prefer in-camera centre-weighted or spot as I know what the meter is trying to measure. With an external meter, I use either incident or multi-spot (my meter will record & display 3 readings).

11-25-2018, 05:21 PM	#127
ChrisPlatt Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rockaway Beach NYC Posts: 7,692	Originally posted by johnha The problem with matrix metering is you don't know what it has already accounted for (or not) - has it dealt with that bright background behind your subject or does it think you're after another effect and left it as It is? I prefer in-camera centre-weighted or spot as I know what the meter is trying to measure. With an external meter, I use either incident or multi-spot (my meter will record & display 3 readings). Trying to out-think and fight automation is no fun - and a waste of time - which defeats the purpose. I'd rather make the decisions based on my own experience. Chris

11-26-2018, 09:32 AM	#128
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,019	Originally posted by ChrisPlatt Trying to out-think and fight automation is no fun - and a waste of time - which defeats the purpose. I'd rather make the decisions based on my own experience. Chris I've never seen you post a picture. How come?

11-27-2018, 05:34 PM	#129
ChrisPlatt Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rockaway Beach NYC Posts: 7,692	Originally posted by tuco I've never seen you post a picture. How come? I don't post photos online in this or any other forum for that matter. Is that required for participation here, or pertinent to this discussion? Chris

11-27-2018, 08:58 PM	#130
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,019	Originally posted by ChrisPlatt I don't post photos online in this or any other forum for that matter. Is that required for participation here, or pertinent to this discussion? Chris No just curious. I though you might not have a scanner or something.

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11-28-2018, 08:39 AM	#131
Xmas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 617	Originally posted by johnha The problem with matrix metering is you don't know what it has already accounted for (or not) - has it dealt with that bright background behind your subject or does it think you're after another effect and left it as It is? I prefer in-camera centre-weighted or spot as I know what the meter is trying to measure. With an external meter, I use either incident or multi-spot (my meter will record & display 3 readings). With negative film for critical shots I point my Weston at the dark area I want silver in the negative and use the zonal calculator. Matrix metering is a compromise?