[lotech]

While playing with my beloved Russian Fed 2 Rangefinder, I found there is light leak at one of the curtains, that explained why I got marks and streaks on the film, that makes me wonder how reliable is cloth shutter. When compared with my KX I don't see light leak on the curtain, the one on the Fed 2 has less or lack of rubberized coating so light can easily get thru' it. It is not totally trashed the leak is on the inner curtain, so that I can still use the camera if I cover the lens when wind, and open it up only when I ready to take the shot.

I checked the old Pentax film cameras and can only find one, the K2 has a Copal shutter, models after it like the MX 'go back' to cloth curtain I don't understand why, the cost ? what are the pros and cons of the two types beside cost ?

[LesDMess]

Historically speaking, all the pro manual cameras all used horizontal shutter curtains. The Nikon F3 has one and Nikon had vertical blades with the release of the Nikkorex F and were in use with their "non-pro" cameras all those years but still chose to use a horizontal curtain in their F3. The Nikon F was originally released with rubberized curtains but moved to titanium curtains so as not to be affected even when pointing to direct sun with the mirror locked in the up position. All the rest followed that move.



I suppose the main pro is that they would be easily serviceable and the main con is the inherently slow sync speed.

Of course there are ways around that since the Olympus OM3 & OM4 - both horizontal shutter curtains, can use sync up 1/2000 albeit at very close range.



Also, with LED technology today, high power LEDs can be made to provide constant light and therefore negate slow sync speed.

BTW, did you know that todays modern SLRs cannot be pointed directly at the sun as it will damage their shutters?

[lotech]

Historically speaking, all the pro manual cameras all used horizontal shutter curtains. The Nikon F3 has one and Nikon had vertical blades with the release of the Nikkorex F and were in use with their "non-pro" cameras all those years but still chose to use a horizontal curtain in their F3. The Nikon F was originally released with rubberized curtains but moved to titanium curtains so as not to be affected even when pointing to direct sun with the mirror locked in the up position. All the rest followed that move.



I suppose the main pro is that they would be easily serviceable and the main con is the inherently slow sync speed.

Of course there are ways around that since the Olympus OM3 & OM4 - both horizontal shutter curtains, can use sync up 1/2000 albeit at very close range.



Also, with LED technology today, high power LEDs can be made to provide constant light and therefore negate slow sync speed.

BTW, did you know that todays modern SLRs cannot be pointed directly at the sun as it will damage their shutters?

Yes, my Minolta XK used Ti shutter, that's what all the pro film camera used back then, for mid range models like the FM2 used Aluminum alloy, most of the rest like the Minolta and Fujica lower end models used cloth curtain that was the norm back then.

Btw I like the OM too for it's tiny size, but it looked strange when coupled with the motor drive, it seems that the OM designer wanted to keep everything small but did not care about how the whole thing looked like. It looked weird to me with the motor drive, seemed like a late final thought add on, even the bulky FM2 with motor looked more natural too me ha !

[cpk]

My Leicas (CL, M5, 3 M4s at various times) all had cloth shutters. Pointing a rangefinder camera at the sun is asking for light leaks in the shutter curtain. SLRs have the mirror mechanism to protect them from the sun's rays being focused to a point on the curtain.

[Time Traveller]

Historically speaking, all the pro manual cameras all used horizontal shutter curtains.

A few pro manual cameras did have a vertical-travel, metal focal-plane shutter:
Contax RTS III: Electronic quartz-controlled, vertical-travel, metal focal-plane shutter.
Leica R3/MOT: Copal CLS electronic vertical-travel, metal focal-plane shutter.

[Eyewanders]

Are there any cameras *after* the MX that are cloth curtains?? I can't think of any. ME, Super ME, Super Program, LX etc are all metal. (Seiko if I'm not mistaken, and the Super Program is vertical travel). I assume the K2 shutter is Seiko as well, not Copal but potayto potahto.

With those old soviet RF cameras, which in many cases aren't quite worth sending for CLA, you can sometimes repair small holes with a few layers of liquid e-tape. I did that on a Zorki with the same problem. Worked fine. Still had shutter capping issues that I never bothered to try and sort out. (Was just thinking of opening it up the other day since I've nothing to lose - it's a shelf princess anyhow.)

But anyhow... as Les mentioned, as far as I understand the argument pros made for horizontal cloth was serviceability. But I really don't know - I was playing with Star Wars action figures at the time any of these (well, the earlier ones mentioned anyhow) were at all contemporary.

And all THAT said... that's definitely a plus I've found with my Konica obsession. They are ALL vertical metal shutters (most are Copal) and I've yet to come across an Autoreflex (or later FT-1) that had a problem which was shutter related. If they're cared for they're bulletproof.

[LesDMess]

A few pro manual cameras did have a vertical-travel, metal focal-plane shutter:
Contax RTS III: Electronic quartz-controlled, vertical-travel, metal focal-plane shutter.
Leica R3/MOT: Copal CLS electronic vertical-travel, metal focal-plane shutter.

I meant all the pro interchangeable viewfinder cameras only of course and definitely well before the 1990 release of the RTS III. I don't have first hand knowledge of those two specifically but do have a Yashica FR and Minolta XE-7 which were joint collaborations for the RTS and R3 respectively. The XE-7 hands down is the smoothest full stroke of all the cameras I have. A real encouragement to advance the film and shoot more shots!

[arnold]

Are there any cameras *after* the MX that are cloth curtains?? I can't think of any. ME, Super ME, Super Program, LX etc are all metal. (Seiko if I'm not mistaken, and the Super Program is vertical travel)

LX is cloth

[Eyewanders]

LX is cloth

It's titanium. Thin foil titanium.

[cpk]

I don't think the issue here is cloth or metal, although a metal curtain would have protected the OP in this case. He, or someone else, pointed a rangefinder camera at the sun, and the sun's rays were focused by the lens to a very small spot on the curtain and burned a hole in it. Factors here would be how long the lens was pointed at the sun, was it focused at infinity or close to that point , and the f-stop. A short time, a wide open lens, and a close focus setting would probably have no effect. When I had my Leicas I did worry about this.

Edit: I found this site after writing my post. I seem to be wrong on the focus and f-stop settings on the lens. The reasons for a cloth shutter curtain are also interesting. My Leicas were very, very quiet. My LX goes off like a cannon, not good when you are doing street photography or a live nightclub show as I was doing.

Leica FAQ — s/curtain holes

[nickthetasmaniac]

Given that the 57 year old shutter in my Leica M2 has never missed a beat, I’d say the basic technological premise of a cloth focal-plane shutter is fairly reliable

[TwoUptons]

So far, my Fed 2 has been fine, shutter-wise... so now we have a dataset of two

-Eric

[lotech]

So far, my Fed 2 has been fine, shutter-wise... so now we have a dataset of two

-Eric

I used few models of Soviet RF, the Fed 2 which is my favorite I got few of them, the Zorki 4 with broken shutter curtain first day I received it, so does the recent acquisition of the Kiev 5, a working Kiev 4 with assortment of lenses, a Leningrad auto winder but I broke the glass/ceramic pressure plate, luckily I found another one but with sticky shutter curtain. Except the Fed 2 I've never put the rest in real use, just play around with it 'dry run'. What I still have now is a Fed 2, a half working Leningrad and the Kiev 5 with broken curtain. I can tell from my experience, old Soviet RF is more reliable than more recent ones, especially on the shutter curtain, it may have light leak but at least fires normally. For all the old cameras I received I did some CLA myself, the Leica copies such as the Fed 2 is very easy to service except the shutter curtain, but the Contax copies like the Kiev is very hard to do it due to the complex mechanism.

[Lord Lucan]

I checked the old Pentax film cameras and can only find one, the K2 has a Copal shutter, models after it like the MX 'go back' to cloth curtain I don't understand why, the cost ?

Someone has already pointed out that there were no Pentax cloth shutters after the MX. The MX was launched at a transitional period when many users did not trust new-fangled things like Auto exposure and metal / vertical shutters, despite the fact that they were already around such as in the K2 introduced a year earlier. Pentax aimed the MX at the still substantial market of users, especially professionals, who did not want those new "fads". The MX had a range of professional accessories like a motor drive. The ME, introduced at the same time, but with a metal shutter and Auto only, was aimed at amateurs.

Over the next few years, at least by the early 1980's, even the most conservative users came to accept Auto exposure (as long as Manual remained an available alternative) and metal shutters.

[lotech]

Someone has already pointed out that there were no Pentax cloth shutters after the MX. The MX was launched at a transitional period when many users did not trust new-fangled things like Auto exposure and metal / vertical shutters. Pentax aimed the MX at the still substantial market of users, especially professionals, who did not want those new "fads". The MX had a range of professional acessories like a motor drive. The ME, introduced at the same time but with a metal shutter and Auto only, was aimed at amateurs.

Over the next few years, at least by the early 1980's, even the most conservative users came to accept Auto exposure (as long as Manual remained an available alternative) and metal shutters.

I don't know how many models after the K2 before the MX, if I understand correctly those in between were cloth shutters, so that I said models after the K2 'go back' to cloth curtain, and I believe the Super A is after the MX so that it uses metal shutter and I've one.