Pentax LX as night camera

Ben_Edict · 03-02-2010, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

The LX is the perfect night-time camera. It works on auto at any light level. I've tried up to 45 minutes.
These images are shot with the LX on Auto:

Pål, these are among the best Aurora photos I have seen, especially the first one. Not just the Aurora, but also an overall competently composed photograph. My own dabbles into Aurora photography go to the bin, after seeing these…

Ben

**Pål Jensen** · 03-02-2010, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Ivan J. Eberle

Nah, because of reciprocity failure, automatic exposure and metering has limited value for exposures beyond the realm of a few seconds-- at least this is true with most films. The 2 stop +/- compensation dial on the LX doesn't buy you much for exposures that run into many minutes or hours because reciprocity failure tends to be logarithmic, not linear. (e.g. an reciprocity-failure compensated 2 stops up from 30 seconds could run to something like 30 minutes or more, not merely 120 seconds). .

In real life it doesn't work that way something the images I posted proves. The first one is shot on Ektachrome 100VS pushed one stop. Exposure time about 2min on auto; no exposure compensation.

The second one is about 5min exposure on Ektachrome 100. Auto; no exposure compensation.

You don't want nighttime photos to look like daytime photos. Hence, reciprocity failure isn't as important as you think unless you are using Kodachrome!

**Pål Jensen** · 03-02-2010, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Ben_Edict

Pål, these are among the best Aurora photos I have seen, especially the first one. Not just the Aurora, but also an overall competently composed photograph. My own dabbles into Aurora photography go to the bin, after seeing these…

Ben

Thanks for you kind words.

Actually most of my Aurora shots goes in the bin as well.

Anyway; I haven't done Auroras, or much photography for that matter, in years.
The first image was planned really. I found a nice spot and waited for four hours for the aurora to appear where I wanted it. It did! I find that treating aurora photography as landscape photography gives much better results....

**ChrisPlatt** · 03-02-2010, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Ben_Edict

Not just the Aurora, but also an overall competently composed photograph.

Even more so considering the foreground objects must have been all but invisible through the viewfinder in near-total darkness.
These are undoubtedly well-planned photos.

Chris

**Pål Jensen** · 03-02-2010, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by ChrisPlatt

Even more so considering the foreground objects must have been all but invisible through the viewfinder in near-total darkness.
These are undoubtedly well-planned photos.

Chris

The first images is shot during full moon (out of the picture) lighting up the landscape and giving the sky that appealing deep blue color.

tuco · 03-02-2010, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

The LX is the perfect night-time camera. It works on auto at any light level. I've tried up to 45 minutes.
These images are shot with the LX on Auto:

Gorgeous aurora shots. Absolutely fantastic. I wonder though, how the Auto metering works after your in the film's reciprocity failure range. I can't say I've done any really long color exposures but I know for some BW films a metered 7 minutes shot means a 45 min exposure, for example.

GeneV · 03-02-2010, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

In real life it doesn't work that way something the images I posted proves. The first one is shot on Ektachrome 100VS pushed one stop. Exposure time about 2min on auto; no exposure compensation.

The second one is about 5min exposure on Ektachrome 100. Auto; no exposure compensation.

You don't want nighttime photos to look like daytime photos. Hence, reciprocity failure isn't as important as you think unless you are using Kodachrome!

That is an interesting point. Since the meter is trying to average a near black scene to neutral gray, it is already compensating by at least a couple of stops. It is one instance where a spot meter might be worse.

tuco · 03-02-2010, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by GeneV

... It is one instance where a spot meter might be worse.

Are you sure? I would think the spotmeter wasn't being used correctly then. It can gives you EVs; you decide if that EV is going to be zone 1, 2, ... 9, for example.

GeneV · 03-03-2010, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by tuco

Are you sure? I would think the spotmeter wasn't being used correctly then. It can gives you EVs; you decide if that EV is going to be zone 1, 2, ... 9, for example.

It sounds like just using the averaging of the LX comes out well. If you use the spot meter, as you say, you have to use it correctly. That's always a risk in my case.

tuco · 03-03-2010, 10:20 PM

What I said doesn't make much sense for sure. But if I could hold my spotmeter in front of you and show you what I mean you'd no doubt say, well that's easy.

Ben_Edict · 03-04-2010, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by tuco

Are you sure? I would think the spotmeter wasn't being used correctly then. It can gives you EVs; you decide if that EV is going to be zone 1, 2, ... 9, for example.

Very few people use zone metering these days, except for Large Format photography. As digital sensors behave completely different from film, it also does not make that much sense to talk about zones. I do not mean, you couldn't apply the zone system to digital. But simply looking at the 3-colour histogram after taking an avaluative first shot is giviong you faster and quite as good results - and that not only for BW, but also for colour.

Ben

tuco · 03-04-2010, 06:51 AM

You can use the zone system of metering without applying the "zone system" to your shooting. And you can meter any manual camera of any format that way with a spotmeter.

So when I aim the spotmeter at a white wall for instance , I just say that white is 7 or 8 and turn the dial down 2 or 3 EVs to get the middle gray called 5 and, walla, there are your shutter/f-stop options for the shot to expose that wall to some degree of white is all. It is just a way of using a spotmeter that reads in EVs instead of shutter/f-stops like my old Pentax Spotmeter V does. It seems to work okay because my highlights come out the way I expect them when I develop my film.

GeneV · 03-04-2010, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by tuco

You can use the zone system of metering without applying the "zone system" to your shooting. And you can meter any manual camera of any format that way with a spotmeter.

So when I aim the spotmeter at a white wall for instance , I just say that white is 7 or 8 and turn the dial down 2 or 3 EVs to get the middle gray called 5 and, walla, there are your shutter/f-stop options for the shot to expose that wall to some degree of white is all. It is just a way of using a spotmeter that reads in EVs instead of shutter/f-stops like my old Pentax Spotmeter V does. It seems to work okay because my highlights come out the way I expect them when I develop my film.

I certainly see the uses for a spotmeter. On the other hand, for night work, you have to pick your zone, do the calculation, and then add something to compensate for the reciprocity failure. That is a good deal of calculating and reasoning. However, it seems from the terrific photos that have been posted that, at least for color film, the effect of averaging out the black to gray seems to negate the reciprocity problems, and the LX automatic metering gives great results. It is a neat fix (perhaps coincidental) that avoids all that effort.

Now, since Acros is reputed not to exhibit reciprocity failure, I wonder if shooting that film on the LX for night shots would result in over-exposure. There, you might need to use your spot meter and manually expose, rather than use the LX auto feature. Perhaps when my LX arrives back, I will try that experiment.

tuco · 03-04-2010, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

...That is a good deal of calculating and reasoning.

Now, since Acros is reputed not to exhibit reciprocity failure, I wonder if shooting that film on the LX for night shots would result in over-exposure. There, you might need to use your spot meter and manually expose, rather than use the LX auto feature. Perhaps when my LX arrives back, I will try that experiment.

That's why I use the old analog Pentax meter instead of a digital spotmeter. The digital meters make you do more in your head. The dial on the analog is easy to turn and just count. No mental gyrations.

Yeah, that would be a good experiments to conduct with Acros. Get that baby fixed and lets see

frank · 03-04-2010, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

The LX is the perfect night-time camera. It works on auto at any light level. I've tried up to 45 minutes.
These images are shot with the LX on Auto:

Wow! Those are super cool!

I tried long time shot w/ my LX once, probably 2 to 3min in Auto (Av) metering mode. The meter worked pretty well. Actually I was testing it under very dark indoor condition. Waited for a couple of minutes, the mirror still didn't go down. So I switched on the light, the mirror went down instantly. Testing picture came out pretty well exposed.

03-04-2010, 06:51 AM	#27
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	You can use the zone system of metering without applying the "zone system" to your shooting. And you can meter any manual camera of any format that way with a spotmeter. So when I aim the spotmeter at a white wall for instance , I just say that white is 7 or 8 and turn the dial down 2 or 3 EVs to get the middle gray called 5 and, walla, there are your shutter/f-stop options for the shot to expose that wall to some degree of white is all. It is just a way of using a spotmeter that reads in EVs instead of shutter/f-stops like my old Pentax Spotmeter V does. It seems to work okay because my highlights come out the way I expect them when I develop my film. Last edited by tuco; 03-04-2010 at 07:07 AM.

03-04-2010, 08:50 AM	#29
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by GeneV ...That is a good deal of calculating and reasoning. Now, since Acros is reputed not to exhibit reciprocity failure, I wonder if shooting that film on the LX for night shots would result in over-exposure. There, you might need to use your spot meter and manually expose, rather than use the LX auto feature. Perhaps when my LX arrives back, I will try that experiment. That's why I use the old analog Pentax meter instead of a digital spotmeter. The digital meters make you do more in your head. The dial on the analog is easy to turn and just count. No mental gyrations. Yeah, that would be a good experiments to conduct with Acros. Get that baby fixed and lets see Last edited by tuco; 03-04-2010 at 08:59 AM.

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03-02-2010, 04:10 PM	#16
Ben_Edict Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SouthWest "Regio" Photos: Albums Posts: 3,309	Originally posted by Pål Jensen The LX is the perfect night-time camera. It works on auto at any light level. I've tried up to 45 minutes. These images are shot with the LX on Auto: Pål, these are among the best Aurora photos I have seen, especially the first one. Not just the Aurora, but also an overall competently composed photograph. My own dabbles into Aurora photography go to the bin, after seeing these… Ben

03-02-2010, 04:39 PM	#17
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Ivan J. Eberle Nah, because of reciprocity failure, automatic exposure and metering has limited value for exposures beyond the realm of a few seconds-- at least this is true with most films. The 2 stop +/- compensation dial on the LX doesn't buy you much for exposures that run into many minutes or hours because reciprocity failure tends to be logarithmic, not linear. (e.g. an reciprocity-failure compensated 2 stops up from 30 seconds could run to something like 30 minutes or more, not merely 120 seconds). . In real life it doesn't work that way something the images I posted proves. The first one is shot on Ektachrome 100VS pushed one stop. Exposure time about 2min on auto; no exposure compensation. The second one is about 5min exposure on Ektachrome 100. Auto; no exposure compensation. You don't want nighttime photos to look like daytime photos. Hence, reciprocity failure isn't as important as you think unless you are using Kodachrome!

03-02-2010, 04:41 PM	#18
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Ben_Edict Pål, these are among the best Aurora photos I have seen, especially the first one. Not just the Aurora, but also an overall competently composed photograph. My own dabbles into Aurora photography go to the bin, after seeing these… Ben Thanks for you kind words. Actually most of my Aurora shots goes in the bin as well. Anyway; I haven't done Auroras, or much photography for that matter, in years. The first image was planned really. I found a nice spot and waited for four hours for the aurora to appear where I wanted it. It did! I find that treating aurora photography as landscape photography gives much better results....

03-02-2010, 06:38 PM	#19
ChrisPlatt Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rockaway Beach NYC Posts: 7,694	Originally posted by Ben_Edict Not just the Aurora, but also an overall competently composed photograph. Even more so considering the foreground objects must have been all but invisible through the viewfinder in near-total darkness. These are undoubtedly well-planned photos. Chris

03-02-2010, 06:44 PM	#20
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by ChrisPlatt Even more so considering the foreground objects must have been all but invisible through the viewfinder in near-total darkness. These are undoubtedly well-planned photos. Chris The first images is shot during full moon (out of the picture) lighting up the landscape and giving the sky that appealing deep blue color.

03-02-2010, 09:43 PM	#21
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by Pål Jensen The LX is the perfect night-time camera. It works on auto at any light level. I've tried up to 45 minutes. These images are shot with the LX on Auto: Gorgeous aurora shots. Absolutely fantastic. I wonder though, how the Auto metering works after your in the film's reciprocity failure range. I can't say I've done any really long color exposures but I know for some BW films a metered 7 minutes shot means a 45 min exposure, for example.

03-02-2010, 09:49 PM	#22
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Pål Jensen In real life it doesn't work that way something the images I posted proves. The first one is shot on Ektachrome 100VS pushed one stop. Exposure time about 2min on auto; no exposure compensation. The second one is about 5min exposure on Ektachrome 100. Auto; no exposure compensation. You don't want nighttime photos to look like daytime photos. Hence, reciprocity failure isn't as important as you think unless you are using Kodachrome! That is an interesting point. Since the meter is trying to average a near black scene to neutral gray, it is already compensating by at least a couple of stops. It is one instance where a spot meter might be worse.

03-02-2010, 10:24 PM	#23
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by GeneV ... It is one instance where a spot meter might be worse. Are you sure? I would think the spotmeter wasn't being used correctly then. It can gives you EVs; you decide if that EV is going to be zone 1, 2, ... 9, for example.

03-03-2010, 08:36 PM	#24
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by tuco Are you sure? I would think the spotmeter wasn't being used correctly then. It can gives you EVs; you decide if that EV is going to be zone 1, 2, ... 9, for example. It sounds like just using the averaging of the LX comes out well. If you use the spot meter, as you say, you have to use it correctly. That's always a risk in my case.

03-03-2010, 10:20 PM	#25
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	What I said doesn't make much sense for sure. But if I could hold my spotmeter in front of you and show you what I mean you'd no doubt say, well that's easy.

03-04-2010, 03:47 AM	#26
Ben_Edict Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SouthWest "Regio" Photos: Albums Posts: 3,309	Originally posted by tuco Are you sure? I would think the spotmeter wasn't being used correctly then. It can gives you EVs; you decide if that EV is going to be zone 1, 2, ... 9, for example. Very few people use zone metering these days, except for Large Format photography. As digital sensors behave completely different from film, it also does not make that much sense to talk about zones. I do not mean, you couldn't apply the zone system to digital. But simply looking at the 3-colour histogram after taking an avaluative first shot is giviong you faster and quite as good results - and that not only for BW, but also for colour. Ben

03-04-2010, 07:28 AM	#28
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by tuco You can use the zone system of metering without applying the "zone system" to your shooting. And you can meter any manual camera of any format that way with a spotmeter. So when I aim the spotmeter at a white wall for instance , I just say that white is 7 or 8 and turn the dial down 2 or 3 EVs to get the middle gray called 5 and, walla, there are your shutter/f-stop options for the shot to expose that wall to some degree of white is all. It is just a way of using a spotmeter that reads in EVs instead of shutter/f-stops like my old Pentax Spotmeter V does. It seems to work okay because my highlights come out the way I expect them when I develop my film. I certainly see the uses for a spotmeter. On the other hand, for night work, you have to pick your zone, do the calculation, and then add something to compensate for the reciprocity failure. That is a good deal of calculating and reasoning. However, it seems from the terrific photos that have been posted that, at least for color film, the effect of averaging out the black to gray seems to negate the reciprocity problems, and the LX automatic metering gives great results. It is a neat fix (perhaps coincidental) that avoids all that effort. Now, since Acros is reputed not to exhibit reciprocity failure, I wonder if shooting that film on the LX for night shots would result in over-exposure. There, you might need to use your spot meter and manually expose, rather than use the LX auto feature. Perhaps when my LX arrives back, I will try that experiment.

03-04-2010, 07:04 PM	#30
frank Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,202	Originally posted by Pål Jensen The LX is the perfect night-time camera. It works on auto at any light level. I've tried up to 45 minutes. These images are shot with the LX on Auto: Wow! Those are super cool! I tried long time shot w/ my LX once, probably 2 to 3min in Auto (Av) metering mode. The meter worked pretty well. Actually I was testing it under very dark indoor condition. Waited for a couple of minutes, the mirror still didn't go down. So I switched on the light, the mirror went down instantly. Testing picture came out pretty well exposed.