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10-01-2012, 06:48 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
"Net to Me" implies that the buyer pays the Pay-Pal fee.
Since we're talking about implication it's a matter of opinion, but to me, "net to me" is telling the buyer: your choice, either add 3% to the price, or make it a gift payment. Maybe not all "net to me" sellers mean it this way, but they ought to know that some buyers read it that way.

"Net to me" is different from listing a price as, say, "$250 plus 3% PP fee". If a seller accepts other forms of payment than PP, it's fine to add the 3% for PP transactions, but I think it should be done explicitly, not with "net to me". Again, I don't care about trying to enforce what happens during the transaction itself, which is not handled by the Marketplace.

10-01-2012, 06:55 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by baro-nite Quote
Since we're talking about implication it's a matter of opinion, but to me, "net to me" is telling the buyer: your choice, either add 3% to the price, or make it a gift payment. Maybe not all "net to me" sellers mean it this way, but they ought to know that some buyers read it that way.

"Net to me" is different from listing a price as, say, "$250 plus 3% PP fee". If a seller accepts other forms of payment than PP, it's fine to add the 3% for PP transactions, but I think it should be done explicitly, not with "net to me". Again, I don't care about trying to enforce what happens during the transaction itself, which is not handled by the Marketplace.
There is no way you can clearly say what someone means by "net to me." It could mean PP fees and shipping. I have sold a few things and in the U.S.A. I generally list it as $xxx shipped unless it is a cheap item and then I go $22 plus shipping. Sure, some people may be thinking about the "gift" thing in the "net to me" but there is no way to know intent unless it comes up in a PM. Saying "net to me" is no different than saying $300 plus shipping or $300 plus shipping and PP fee.

Doing away with overtly stating "gift" can be done away with in the ad. That is about it. If I were ever to sell my Tak 500/4.5, I wouldn't want to include shipping in that beast!
10-01-2012, 07:21 AM   #33
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I think I've bought 3 items here - a P645 kit, an ZX-5 kit, and a Vivitar 28 lens. The Vivitar turns out someone had monkeyed with, but I didn't mind until it jumped its focus helicoid. The two cameras are beautiful, exactly as described...

I do have a couple of observations - often the prices asked for are somewhat optimistic, so one has to know the market. Check with KEH - they are still the most reliable sellers - for what an absolute honest no-hassle transaction would cost. I don't mind paying up for sellers I know here, for equipment that is clearly in near mint condition.

Otherwise, these are often well-used items, where one person's problem is another's 'what do you expect?'... Sellers have to be honest in their descriptions, and realistic in their expectations - and that goes for buyers as well.
10-01-2012, 07:24 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Saying "net to me" is no different than saying $300 plus shipping or $300 plus shipping and PP fee.
Yes, it is. The latter two are explicit and clear. "Net to me" is vague, and to me and at least some others it is an implicit invitation to send money via PP gift, and a signal not to bother with this seller. I bet there are some sellers who list this way simply because they see that it is a common practice and don't realize that there are some buyers who object to it.

I'm not trying to protect PP; they look after themselves all too well. I just think it tarnishes the Marketplace to have "PP gift" (and, yes, "net to me") listings.

10-01-2012, 08:26 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by baro-nite Quote
Yes, it is. The latter two are explicit and clear. "Net to me" is vague, and to me and at least some others it is an implicit invitation to send money via PP gift, and a signal not to bother with this seller. I bet there are some sellers who list this way simply because they see that it is a common practice and don't realize that there are some buyers who object to it.

I'm not trying to protect PP; they look after themselves all too well. I just think it tarnishes the Marketplace to have "PP gift" (and, yes, "net to me") listings.
On the flip side of that, there are people that feel listings with a $$$ + pp fees + shipping tarnishes the market place as well. My point was real simple. Should gifting were made against the rules, then you wouldn't be able to assume that gifting was implied under net to me. I agree that "gifting" should not be stated in the ad, but that is just my opinion at this point.

Last edited by Blue; 10-01-2012 at 09:25 AM.
10-01-2012, 08:56 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
I do have a couple of observations - often the prices asked for are somewhat optimistic, so one has to know the market. Check with KEH - they are still the most reliable sellers - for what an absolute honest no-hassle transaction would cost. I don't mind paying up for sellers I know here, for equipment that is clearly in near mint condition.
This bring up a good point. The PF Marketplace is a single global marketplace, where international factors sometimes get lost in translation. Prices for products, shipping costs and even paypal fees in one country are not the same as in other countries.

Prices

KEH prices are accurate for the US marketplace, but they don't necessarily reflect the cost of used items accurately for other markets. For many of us, you won't find pricing like that locally, and to purchase the item from KEH, you add international shipping then are faced with duties/taxes, which can negate the original discounted value of the item.

A good example of this is to search ebay.com site instead of ebay.ca (or another international ebay site). I'll find sought after items at ridiculously low prices, yet they sit at 0 bids. These items are almost always set to shipping to the US only.

Shipping

Shipping costs are another area of confusion. Shipping costs from Canada reflect the realities of having a tiny population served across a large geographic area. Some locations are cheap to ship to and others are ridiculously expensive. Depending on where I try to ship to, shipping an average lens internationally will swing from $20 to one country to $90 for another, even though both countries sit beside each other. There is no way I could offer to include shipping in the price of an item.

Paypal

Paypal fees vary depending on the country. It's not bad in Canada, on average about an extra $10 over other methods for smallish items and it does offer some protection.

I would imagine everyone here is familiar with Paypal as ebay seems to be a common thread with obtaining Pentax items. Most countries don't have their banking system setup to do what Paypal does, at least not yet. Here in Canada we do, and it's basically exactly the same as Paypal, sharing only an email address and instead of logging into Paypal to do the transaction, you log into your bank. It's cheap and offers some security that Paypal doesn't, is guaranteed but it doesn't (I don't think) have the same form of buyer protection. From feedback on this site, most here have no idea what I'm talking about. Here in Canada there will be less familiarization with Paypal; for example, I'm usually approached by my renters asking if they can pay through an electronic bank transfer, whereas if I asked them to send it to me via paypal, many would probably wonder what the hell I'm talking about.

Last edited by SteveM; 10-01-2012 at 11:16 AM.
10-01-2012, 08:57 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
This thread is totally depressing and totally discouraging to anyone who might even attempt to sell in the Market who isn't an expert. Thanks. You folks have just talked me right out of yet another probably lame attempt at trying to sell off some of my gear to people who might actually want to use it.

Yes, I did get it mostly at thrift shops, at the flea markets et all, but if I may ask just where *else* am I supposed to get vintage camera gear? Since I have no way of actually knowing if my idea of "very good to near mint" is good enough and I am now way too bloody freaking intimated to even try going there again I'm going to just forget the afternoon I just spent taking pics of every freaking thing in my kit.

I think I'll just skulk back off to my corner, ignore the pile of bills I was trying to pay off and just resign myself to the fact that I have easily 2K worth of extra "stuff" that I can't sell off to save my life. I wish I was totally joking. Yeah, I am partly, but I'm not entirely. Reading this thread? I just feel way too...unworthy...

You know I used to think I had a pretty thick hide till I started hanging out around here. It's not like I haven't been selling shiz for half my life offline. But every time I even think about listing in the Market here? I just end up withdrawing my attempt and reaching for the Prilosec... :P
Mag, I would totally buy your stuff -- should I want it, naturally. Let's see it.

One thing I have noticed is that the craigslist people out in the world who don't know a thing about cameras but have something they got out of the closet to sell is that they give credit to the condition for age. So they'll list something as being "minty" and you'll go look at it and it is well-used and covered with filth. And you say, "This isn't anywhere near minty." and they'll say, "It's old! Of course it has wear and the eyepiece is missing and the battery door is leaking green stuff! My dad used it for 30 years!" "Then why call it mint?" "For its age, it is! It still works! The shutter snaps!"

I also think lots of people just don't know what words mean, which is sad, but I can come to no other conclusion.
10-01-2012, 09:26 AM   #38
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Anyway, sorry for taking this thread off-topic from the original posts with discussion about Marketplace rules. Moot point, because Adam has repeatedly said that he is not interested in going beyond the current Marketplace guidelines, so I'll simply agree to disagree with Blue on the question of assumptions.

Just to add something on topic, I'll echo to Mag that you should go right ahead and sell here whenever and whatever you want, and I'm sure you'll find buyers (although your -- very understandable -- aversion to PayPal will limit your audience). To get back to the OP's point, undoubtedly there are going to be [edit] a few [/edit] unscrupulous, careless, or simply ignorant sellers here. I haven't done a huge number of transactions through the Marketplace, but I've done several, and never had a problem. Just as with eBay listings, it's up to the buyer to decide if a listing looks honest and/or well-informed or not. "Flipping" gear acquired through thrift shops or whatever is a service to the Pentax community and I'm all for it.


Last edited by baro-nite; 10-01-2012 at 01:16 PM. Reason: clarification
10-01-2012, 10:41 AM   #39
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I agree with baro-nite about the flipping service. I don't live in a large community - total of less than 20,000 residents within a 30 km/20 mile radius - so thrift shops and pawn shops, etc. are in short supply. The market place is about it for me.
10-01-2012, 11:02 AM   #40
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Despite the tone of my earlier posts I've not had any problems buying or selling here. I think the secret is photographs, read the Feedback comments and skepticism. I HAVE (politely) refused to sell to potential buyers who I felt I just couldn't quite trust (they never complained, nor agreed to meet my terms). I've immediately refunded and accepted the return of an item the buyer felt was mischaracterized (I don't think it was, but there you go) and resold it just days later, noting the objections the first buyer described, for the exact same price.

One buyer thought I took too long to actually package and ship a lens (4 business days) that also required the typical 3 weeks in CanadaPost, so he gave me a neutral.

All in all the Marketplace is fair and straight up.
10-01-2012, 11:05 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
One buyer thought I took too long to actually package and ship a lens (4 business days).
That is too long -- get it out there next day. Once you have the money, you're on the clock.
10-01-2012, 12:04 PM   #42
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I like the marketplace, but I am pretty careful with who I deal with, use paypal, and when selling something, try to be up-front about condition. If a lens has scuffs on it, even if the glass is clean as a whistle, don't advertise it as "mint" or, even "like new." Take the best photos you can to show any defects. It really is in your best interest as a seller, because the worst thing is if the buyer gets something and is surprised by how poor the condition is compared to your statements.

I am irritated by the people who require others to figure out pay pal fees.

As always, buyer-beware. There is nothing wrong with asking for more photos, checking other sites to see what comparable gear is priced at, etc. In my experience, most "rare" items aren't all that rare and are just over priced.
10-01-2012, 03:54 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
I agree with baro-nite about the flipping service.
I would generally agree except that the substance being "flipped" is often pretty close to excrement.


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10-01-2012, 04:15 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I would generally agree except that the substance being "flipped" is often pretty close to excrement.
That's a very broad statement, and your original post only describes one transaction. You mention other sellers but haven't cited experience with them. It's important to expose unscrupulous sellers and that's why we have the feedback system. Not perfect, I'm sure.
10-01-2012, 04:24 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by baro-nite Quote
That's a very broad statement,
Sorry...it is a pretty broad statement, but you don't have to look very far in the listings to find evidence of flipping where the seller has multiple items, each described in the most general of terms. Sort of like the eBay listings where the seller claims ignorance about all things photographic despite having dozens of lenses and cameras for sale.


Steve
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