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10-03-2012, 06:59 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
I don't understand this equivalence of "flipping" with scamming. Nothing wrong with flipping as long as you describe condition accurately. I buy stuff a lot for the sole purpose of selling it again (i.e. flipping), but I also often spend paragraphs describing any subtle flaws or issues that might arise, even beyond condition problems or defects, but just peculiarities about the item that might not be generally known.
I have bought stuff with the intention of selling it, one of these days I'll actually sell something, I usually end up liking stuff too much to part with it.

Case in point is the Vivitar 2x Macro Teleconverter, I got a killer deal on it, $6 in the box. In the past I've never found a 2x teleconverter that was worth using except by removing the glass and making an extension tube. Of course this is too valuable to destroy, unlike my numerous 4 element ones, so I was going to resell it. Then I put my M 50mm f1.4 on it and was blown away, now I've mounted all kinds of lenses to it, from fisheyes to my Vivitar Series 1 70-210mm. Only way I'm going to part with this is if I find one with A contacts.

10-03-2012, 08:02 PM   #62
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I've bought here and sold a couple things and have a couple things for sale. I try to price my items reasonably and I get tired of people asking for stupidly ridiculous, insulting prices for gear that's in good shape and well cared for.

I tried to sell a bag that was too small for my purposes, new, with tags on it, for less than retail since I got in on sale. Asked for what I paid plus shipping. I was offered $1 more than my asking price to ship to somewhere in the South Pacific. Would have cost me nearly 75% of my asking price just to get it to him.

It's the same on all forums. You rarely get someone who buys at your asking price, even when it's reasonable. I hate the haggle game and I know people want a deal, but it'd be nice if more than once in a while, someone recognized that we're all trying move gear for one reason or another and don't want to take a huge loss, but realize we're not going to get retail prices.

It's to the point where I see a lot of used items priced at or above NIB retail simply because they know the haggle game and insulting offers are just around the corner.

I ask about prices when the asking price is high, as in equal or above retail, but I understand people have families and bills to pay and are trying to avoid a huge loss.
10-03-2012, 09:27 PM   #63
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I feel that in most cases, purchasing something here from the marketplace from an active and reputable member, is safer than purchasing from some random ebay seller. I've taken the risk and purchased from new members with 0 feedback before just because they had what I was looking for and at a good price, in both cases the items were accurately described and we had no problems, but I guess I was just lucky. But then again, I've purchased from ebay members with 500+ feedback points only to get something (in most cases, manual lenses) that was described as "mint" and in "great condition" only to get something that was fungus-ridden, had condensation, or super-stiff focus rings. When I tried to reason with the sellers, they blew me off and said that they aren't camera experts and they were only able to describe the exterior condition... yeah, bull****! Could have mentioned that in the listing and not described it as perfect if it wasn't even tested or looked over well. I refrain from buying from these kinds of Ebay sellers now, unless they have a return policy, or the price is just dirt-cheap that I can risk it. I've had much better experiences with KEH and reputable camera sellers/resellers on Ebay- even though not everything I have purchased was as described, they were quick to correct any issues and gave me refunds, no problem.

I can't say that much about buying from the PF marketplace, as I've mostly sold things. The only purchases being the ones from the two new/0 FB members and a trade between lenses worth about $800- all of which were positive experiences.
In all honesty, I don't think I would buy from new/0 FB members again, unless the price was a risk I was willing to take, as I've learned (painfully) that not everyone on the internet can be trusted (but that issue wasn't with PF)... also, if a listing just looks peculiar, the pictures are really bad, the descriptions are bad, or the seller can't answer my questions well, I just skip over it. If others do the same, the seller realizes that they have to make changes and put more effort into their listing if they want to sell it and convince people of its description and condition. If they don't do that, well, tough love, your item doesn't sell.

As far as selling goes, I try to be as honest and accurate as I can, but I'm only human and I do occasionally make mistakes (just like we all do) or there might have been an issue with an item that I was unaware of. In those cases, I try my best to work it out with the buyer by allowing them to return it or giving a refund/partial refund, which I believe is fair. Also, when I describe things, I've been told that I'm very critical and make things sound in worse condition then they actually are, so I guess if you're buying from me, that's a plus for you.

I myself don't want to be ripped-off, so I don't do it to others; it is that simple. Don't try to pull of your crappy-lens-with-issues as "brand new mint condition", if it is worth $40 because of its bad condition, don't ask $400. So what if you paid $500 for it new and then broke it? Take the loss and move on, don't try to earn as much as you can back from it. Photography equipment is like a car; you purchase it new for $15000, give it some years and miles, sell it for $7500- don't expect to get $15000 back for it. You used it, it served you well, its older- give it up for $7500 and move on... or just continue using it until it completely dies. Photo gear gets used, dated, and develops issues that are expensive or in some cases, unable to be fixed, but that's normal, so just accept it.

That's the end of my rant, thanks to OP for bringing this up.

Last edited by Julie; 10-03-2012 at 09:32 PM.
10-04-2012, 01:20 AM - 1 Like   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
You rarely get someone who buys at your asking price, even when it's reasonable.
Of the items I've bought here on the PF Marketplace, most of the time I've simply taken the item at asking price. Of course those were items I thought were priced reasonably. If you aren't making many such sales then perhaps your view of reasonable is on the high side. You mention selling a new bag "for less than retail since I got in on sale", which suggests you would have asked for retail had you paid that. As a rule people will not pay retail except from a retailer. Also, bags don't hold resale value the same way certain lenses do. If you buy a bag new and before removing the tags decide you don't want it, return it to the retailer instead of trying to resell it.

At any rate, adding "prices firm" or some such to your listing might reduce the number of lowball offers you get.

QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
It's to the point where I see a lot of used items priced at or above NIB retail simply because they know the haggle game and insulting offers are just around the corner.
The insult in such a case is from the seller.

10-04-2012, 08:56 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by baro-nite Quote
Of the items I've bought here on the PF Marketplace, most of the time I've simply taken the item at asking price.
I have done the same with reasonably priced items, like a couple lenses. I almost bought a grip here recently after asking the seller if he was negotiable on his price since it was priced $15 above current retail prices for a new grip. I didn't send an offer without asking because if he was firm on the price, then we're done and I don't buy.

I ended up having someone local offer me a grip in the same condition with a battery for the same price and let the seller here know and he said he couldn't do the same and I understood. I just wish buying and selling on forums, where we generally have similar interests (why we're here) and some commonalities, wasn't so combative.

Seems most people feel like that have to get $5 or $10 knocked off the price to feel good about a purchase. You pay that much for lunch at Burger King and you want to fight over it on a purchase for a lens or something where we're talking about a couple percentage points?

QuoteQuote:
You mention selling a new bag "for less than retail since I got in on sale", which suggests you would have asked for retail had you paid that. As a rule people will not pay retail except from a retailer. Also, bags don't hold resale value the same way certain lenses do. If you buy a bag new and before removing the tags decide you don't want it, return it to the retailer instead of trying to resell it.
The bag was over $70 retail plus shipping. I asked for the same $49 I paid plus shipping. To me, that's fair considering you won't get the bag for that price anywhere new unless you were on the same 3-4 hour sale that particular day.

The offer that was insulting was to ship the bag to (I think) a Pacific island for $50. It was going to be $27 shipping to Australia, let alone some fairly remote place

I know people don't pay retail, I'm not an idiot or new to buying stuff on forums, but for the most part, we're people who share common interests and personally, I try to help others out. If I see a deal, I tell people. If someone is selling gear, I want to get a deal, but I'm not going to make someone take a ridiculous loss simply because the person isn't employed by or an owner of a retail establishment.

Returning it to the retailer involved paying return shipping. I was trying to save a few bucks myself and pass the savings I got on the sale price to another member.

Excuse me for trying to help someone else out while also taking care of myself. It could have been win win for everyone involved.

Last edited by jtkratzer; 10-04-2012 at 09:01 AM.
10-04-2012, 09:20 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
Seems most people feel like that have to get $5 or $10 knocked off the price to feel good about a purchase.
The logic cuts both ways. Why are you bothered by that same $5 or $10? Because you want to feel good about the sale, by getting what you think is the reasonable price. Why is your price the reasonable one? Because you think so. Look long enough and you'll probably find a buyer who agrees.

QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
If someone is selling gear, I want to get a deal, but I'm not going to make someone take a ridiculous loss
You can't possibly make the seller do so. It's up to the seller to agree to your offer. For some sellers it may be better to take the hit than no sale at all; that's for them to decide.

QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
Excuse me for trying to help someone else out while also taking care of myself.
Cue tiny violin ...
10-04-2012, 09:26 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by baro-nite Quote
The logic cuts both ways. Why are you bothered by that same $5 or $10? Because you want to feel good about the sale, by getting what you think is the reasonable price. Why is your price the reasonable one? Because you think so. Look long enough and you'll probably find a buyer who agrees.
It was hypothetical. It's never just $5 or $10. It's people asking for 20% off your asking price. Or people asking you to lose 50% of you asking price to shipping charges.

QuoteQuote:
You can't possibly make the seller do so. It's up to the seller to agree to your offer. For some sellers it may be better to take the hit than no sale at all; that's for them to decide.
(Edited) Perhaps you could cut that down to something short enough to stuff in a fortune cookie.

QuoteQuote:
Cue tiny violin ...
Really? Sounds like whining when I'm trying to get someone else a decent price on a brand new product I don't need and at the same time save myself a few bucks shipping back a product to Amazon so they can turn around and sell it for $20 more than I paid for it since it's not on sale any more? That sounds like trying to help out someone who might be looking for a bag. Turns out, no one wanted it, so I did ship it back. No worries.

(Edited)

Last edited by Blue; 10-04-2012 at 09:59 AM. Reason: Rudeness and language
10-04-2012, 12:53 PM   #68
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i have gone through this pretty thoroughly and while I have only bought one item in the market place, and 2 on e-bay, I can understand a lot on both sides of the argument.

I am willing to bet that the only time that there is true agreement on "fair price" is the moment of sale. If sellers want to hold out for their price, that is their option, they can bump things to the top as often as they want, and no one will buy if the price is too high. If they don't want offers to consider other than their price, then they really don't belong here, but on E-Bay with a BIN price. Otherwise, everything is negotiable in my opinion.

The bigger risk, and this is not so much related to low value items, but more to expensive ones, is the lack of ability to touch and feel.

on something like a $30 lens, who cares if it is perfect or not, but that changes when it is a $300 lens. In those cases some good discussion and better images etc of the product is needed, and that obligation is both on the seller and the buyer.

just my $0.02

11-16-2012, 08:42 PM   #69
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A short footnote on this thread. I think I may have mentioned in the OP or other early post that I was waiting delivery of a lens (S-M-C Takumar 28/3.5) from an established forum member and that I was pretty confident of getting a reasonable item. Turns out that the lens was gorgeous and prime in every way...except one. The aperture was incredibly lazy.

I contacted the seller and offered to keep the lens for what I paid (high $$) minus the cost to have it repaired. The seller opted instead to have me return the lens and eat the shipping both directions. That was all fair and good and I am sorry that the seller ended up on the losing end.

Despite the good outcome, I found the whole transaction to be a little disturbing. In written conversation it came out that:
  • The seller had never mounted the lens to camera
  • The seller had never checked the diaphragm or auto-aperture operation
  • The seller was ignorant of the second pin on a S-M-C or SMC Takumar that must be depressed in order to test the aperture ring off-camera
In other words, despite being a long-time and knowledgeable contributor to PF, the seller sent me something described as "excellent" that he had not fully inspected.

This was more than a month ago and I was able to secure a replacement lens in similar condition from KEH for the same amount of money. I remain conflicted, however. Part of me says that I should leave negative Marketplace feedback. Another part of me cautions that the seller may well have learned his lesson and will be more careful in the future. Perhaps, he may even check stuff out before HE buys it. That way the risk of passing on the bad stuff to others is reduced.

Either way, I think I am done buying lenses and cameras for awhile. I have more toys than I can play with and the current state of the market (prices high...quality mixed) makes things not as much fun as it used to be.


Steve


(...would caution buyers that major flooding and/or hurricanes often results in a glut of flood-damaged gear hitting the market a month or so later...)
11-16-2012, 10:42 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
A short footnote on this thread. I think I may have mentioned in the OP or other early post that I was waiting delivery of a lens (S-M-C Takumar 28/3.5) from an established forum member and that I was pretty confident of getting a reasonable item. Turns out that the lens was gorgeous and prime in every way...except one. The aperture was incredibly lazy.

I contacted the seller and offered to keep the lens for what I paid (high $$) minus the cost to have it repaired. The seller opted instead to have me return the lens and eat the shipping both directions. That was all fair and good and I am sorry that the seller ended up on the losing end.

Despite the good outcome, I found the whole transaction to be a little disturbing. In written conversation it came out that:
  • The seller had never mounted the lens to camera
  • The seller had never checked the diaphragm or auto-aperture operation
  • The seller was ignorant of the second pin on a S-M-C or SMC Takumar that must be depressed in order to test the aperture ring off-camera
In other words, despite being a long-time and knowledgeable contributor to PF, the seller sent me something described as "excellent" that he had not fully inspected.

This was more than a month ago and I was able to secure a replacement lens in similar condition from KEH for the same amount of money. I remain conflicted, however. Part of me says that I should leave negative Marketplace feedback. Another part of me cautions that the seller may well have learned his lesson and will be more careful in the future. Perhaps, he may even check stuff out before HE buys it. That way the risk of passing on the bad stuff to others is reduced.

Either way, I think I am done buying lenses and cameras for awhile. I have more toys than I can play with and the current state of the market (prices high...quality mixed) makes things not as much fun as it used to be.


Steve


(...would caution buyers that major flooding and/or hurricanes often results in a glut of flood-damaged gear hitting the market a month or so later...)
If you buy enough from KEH, you will discover they don't inspect their lenses either...
11-17-2012, 08:30 AM   #71
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I recently posted a Want to Buy ad here for an LX after seeing some pretty atrocious prices on eBay for examples that people knowingly were asking stupid prices for bodies that were or were beginning to experience the sticky mirror issue. When bringing up the cost of repair and asking if they were flexible on the buy it now price, most just gave me the cold shoulder and were clearly seeking an ignorant buyer.

I found one here from a member who has been here for a bit over three years and has 100% feedback. Over the course of the transaction, we exchanged over 70 emails back and forth, a couple PMs, and a few phone calls. Some of those were unrelated to the transaction, we're both artillery guys from two different eras in the military, and a number of them have been post sale discussion of other things, but the fact is, it's been more than just a buyer/seller relationship and everything has been exemplary.

I just sent a payment this morning for a lens listed here after seeing feedback and exchanging a few PMs.

I think if you're knowledgeable of what you're buying (or selling) and honest on both sides of the deal, you're mor often than not going to have success. I don't know people here any more than I do from eBay or anywhere else, but with the forum moderators, PayPal protection, and etc, as long as you know what you're buying, things should work out just fine.

I've had nothing but success and great transactions as a buyer and a seller on this site.
11-17-2012, 11:57 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by jtkratzer Quote
as long as you know what you're buying, things should work out just fine.
I agree, though the original post was in reference to noobs.

On a related note, I saw that there was a recent review posted for the Pentax-M 85/2 giving the lens a "1" on a scale of 1-10. According to the review, the user was not able to get sharp photos at larger apertures. It was the reviewer's first or second post here. I wondered whether the reviewer had purchased a lens with obvious defect.

Steve
11-17-2012, 12:10 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
If you buy enough from KEH, you will discover they don't inspect their lenses either...
I can't say one way or the other on that one. I can say that they don't quibble about a return and stand by their warranty. I have only bought ten or so items from KEH and none of those in BGN or UG condition. My general impression has been favorable and in a couple of cases, I found evidence that the item had been serviced prior to sale. To balance, I would caution that their condition rating scale shifts somewhat according to the class of gear with more lenience being given to large format and medium format items.

Steve
11-17-2012, 11:00 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I can't say one way or the other on that one. I can say that they don't quibble about a return and stand by their warranty. I have only bought ten or so items from KEH and none of those in BGN or UG condition. My general impression has been favorable and in a couple of cases, I found evidence that the item had been serviced prior to sale. To balance, I would caution that their condition rating scale shifts somewhat according to the class of gear with more lenience being given to large format and medium format items.

Steve
Just this year I have had a defective Pentax ME Super, EOS 1V, and Mamiya 645AF all from KEH in EX condition. However they rock their warranty and provided replacements.
11-18-2012, 07:22 AM - 1 Like   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by montman Quote
Just this year I have had a defective Pentax ME Super, EOS 1V, and Mamiya 645AF all from KEH in EX condition. However they rock their warranty and provided replacements.
That right there makes me hesitant to buy anything from them. Who cares if there warranty is great if they don't get it right on the first try with regularity?

Having to rely on a warranty should be the exception, not the excuse.
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