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03-25-2021, 01:22 AM - 3 Likes   #7711
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Last edited by felixkh; 03-25-2021 at 01:42 AM.
03-25-2021, 01:43 AM   #7712
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I'm not a great rangefinder fan (I'm happy with my FED2 for occasional use) but that Zeiss does look sweet. Something elegant in the design that appeals.
03-25-2021, 02:33 AM   #7713
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QuoteOriginally posted by Huss Quote
Erm, no.
Lots of ways the Leica M finder is much better. But I'll just put this pic of the view through the viewfinder here, and you can figure out why the Leica M finder is in a different league.

Even as a committed Leica M owner/user/borderlinefanboy, I'm not sure how that photo demonstrates that a Leica viewfinder is in a different league to the ZM finder?

---------- Post added 03-25-21 at 08:34 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The ZM shares DNA with my Bessa R3M, but with a longer rangefinder base, auto frameline popup, nicer finish, and more elegant control layout. They are very cool cameras!
I've often wondered about this. Does the ZM actually share anything with the Bessa line? Other than being made by Cosina obviously...
03-25-2021, 05:13 AM - 2 Likes   #7714
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I finally have enough SMU's to post an image of my biggest lens. Mounted via adapter on an MFT body (equivalent to cropping off 75% of the picture area), IQ from this beast still holds up well, but then the image is only using the "sweet center." Focus peaking through the viewfinder makes focusing reasonably easy and accurate. This is a location optic, not for carry-along-in-case.

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03-25-2021, 07:08 AM   #7715
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QuoteOriginally posted by Huss Quote
Erm, no.
Lots of ways the Leica M finder is much better. But I'll just put this pic of the view through the viewfinder here, and you can figure out why the Leica M finder is in a different league.
I disagree - I've used Leica M cameras since 1968 (M4 was my first) and have M2,3,4,5,6,9 & 10 and find the ZM finder clearer and easier to focus. The M10 is getting close, with better eye relief and very slightly higher mag. I wear glasses full time, so those who don't may have a different view.
03-25-2021, 08:13 AM   #7716
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QuoteOriginally posted by nickthetasmaniac Quote
Even as a committed Leica M owner/user/borderlinefanboy, I'm not sure how that photo demonstrates that a Leica viewfinder is in a different league to the ZM finder?[COLOR="Silver"]
.
If you look at the image, you will see the RF patch is seriously lop sided within the frame lines.
That's because the rf patch is fixed and does not move with the frame lines when the frame lines move to compensate for parallax as the camera is focussed.

So at infinity the rf patch is noticeably off kilter. It's a cheap way to implement an RF mechanism.

With a Leica M, you can use the position of the rf patch to aid your composition to take quick shots, as it never changes in relation to the frame lines. They move together. So by glancing at your RFpatch -say when you focus, you always know your framing.

---------- Post added 03-25-21 at 08:15 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by TomB_tx Quote
I disagree - I've used Leica M cameras since 1968 (M4 was my first) and have M2,3,4,5,6,9 & 10 and find the ZM finder clearer and easier to focus. The M10 is getting close, with better eye relief and very slightly higher mag. I wear glasses full time, so those who don't may have a different view.
Comparing my ZM to my Leica Ms, the ZM's rf patch disappears unless your eye is perfectly placed, and you cannot see the exposure readout at the same time as the RF patch. And in bright daylight the exposure readouts can disappear.
03-25-2021, 12:11 PM   #7717
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QuoteOriginally posted by nickthetasmaniac Quote
I've often wondered about this. Does the ZM actually share anything with the Bessa line? Other than being made by Cosina obviously...
Shutter button and lock lever, meter, viewfinder characteristics, rangefinder patch, shutter, dumb low position strap lugs, lens mount, magnesium-clad die-cast construction, and shutter box are shared. Not shared are rangefinder baseline, viewfinder, meter display, viewfinder magnification, frameline implementation, body casting, film chamber, film door, film transport/rewind*, Bessa support of trigger winder, grips, tripod mount centered on Bessa vs. offset to right edge on ZM, etc.

In short, there are sufficient clues of family resemblance and some obvious sharing of the features that make the Bessa models competitive**, but the ZM is definitely not a dressed up Bessa. Would I trade my R3M plus a few hundred dollars for a similar condition ZM...maybe, but maybe not. I bought manual metering for a reason. If someone offered me an M4-P for same, I would jump at it.


Steve

* I would have to have both cameras at hand to confirm. Reviewer's descriptions lead me to believe they may be the same.

** Viewfinder and rangefinder patch in general and 1x viewfinder on my R3M. No...not interested in arguing the comparisons...

Last edited by stevebrot; 03-25-2021 at 12:23 PM.
03-25-2021, 03:57 PM   #7718
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Shutter button and lock lever, meter, viewfinder characteristics, rangefinder patch, shutter, dumb low position strap lugs, lens mount, magnesium-clad die-cast construction, and shutter box are shared. Not shared are rangefinder baseline, viewfinder, meter display, viewfinder magnification, frameline implementation, body casting, film chamber, film door, film transport/rewind*, Bessa support of trigger winder, grips, tripod mount centered on Bessa vs. offset to right edge on ZM, etc.

In short, there are sufficient clues of family resemblance and some obvious sharing of the features that make the Bessa models competitive**, but the ZM is definitely not a dressed up Bessa. Would I trade my R3M plus a few hundred dollars for a similar condition ZM...maybe, but maybe not. I bought manual metering for a reason. If someone offered me an M4-P for same, I would jump at it.


Steve

* I would have to have both cameras at hand to confirm. Reviewer's descriptions lead me to believe they may be the same.

** Viewfinder and rangefinder patch in general and 1x viewfinder on my R3M. No...not interested in arguing the comparisons...
I had an R3A... to be fair to the ZM, the strap lugs may be low but they are much better angled (not as much to the front) so the camera does not annoyingly flip up to the sky like the Bessas do.
Film rewind on the ZM is underneath like a Leica M5 or Minolta CLE, and is a much nicer and sturdier mechanism.
The Bessa has the AE lock button on the right hand side - pretty much under the film wind lever. So so much better than the ZM where it is in the middle and just inconvenient. Cosina made both cameras? Why would they do that?!
The shutter sound/recoil is really clanky feeling in the Bessa, less so in the Zeiss (must have better dampening in the shutter box) and nothing like the smooth low pitch silkiness of a Leica.

Bessa R3Ms have skyrocketed in price! If you wanted an M4-P, you would have money over if you sold your Bessa!
A couple of years ago they literally were $600. Now it seems they are touching $2000!

I would make that trade in a heart beat.

03-25-2021, 07:05 PM   #7719
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QuoteOriginally posted by Huss Quote
Bessa R3Ms have skyrocketed in price!
I noticed that! I saw one from Japan for $2900. I bought mine in 2015 (full price) from cameraquest the very day (Sept 29, 2015) of the announcement that Cosina was halting production. I am glad I did because while prices never dropped, availability here in the U.S. fell off quickly. I was happy to get an open box/demo Nokton Classic 40/1.4 MC for $100 off to complete the package with a modern lens.

In regards to the shutter note...I have never found mine bothersome, particularly at 1/125s and above, but just found out today that the mechanical shutter in the R3M is reportedly much quieter than electronic shutter in the R3A. I also found out today that two metering patterns exist for the Bessas. Earlier versions have gray paint on the full face of the outer curtain, while later versions, like mine, have only the center blade grayed, the same as that on the ZM.


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03-26-2021, 03:31 AM   #7720
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QuoteOriginally posted by Huss Quote
Cosina made both cameras? Why would they do that?!.
My understanding is that the ZM was a Zeiss design with Cosina as the OEM provider, while the Bessa’s were a Cosina product start to finish. I suppose Cosina probably had little/no say over the ZM design?
03-26-2021, 07:58 AM   #7721
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QuoteOriginally posted by Huss Quote
Bessa R3Ms have skyrocketed in price! If you wanted an M4-P, you would have money over if you sold your Bessa!
A couple of years ago they literally were $600. Now it seems they are touching $2000!

Not just the R3Ms! As a vintage Contax shooter, I've always had my eye on the R2C. They also used to also be about $600-700 a couple years ago. Now it seems like they'll cost you at least $1500.
03-26-2021, 11:07 AM   #7722
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QuoteOriginally posted by g026r Quote
Not just the R3Ms! As a vintage Contax shooter, I've always had my eye on the R2C. They also used to also be about $600-700 a couple years ago. Now it seems like they'll cost you at least $1500.
Yup. I wanted to buy an R2S (the Nikon S mount version) to use my S mount lenses. They are now as expensive as buying a perfect condition limited edition Nikon S3 2000!
03-26-2021, 12:26 PM   #7723
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QuoteOriginally posted by nickthetasmaniac Quote
My understanding is that the ZM was a Zeiss design with Cosina as the OEM provider, while the Bessa’s were a Cosina product start to finish. I suppose Cosina probably had little/no say over the ZM design?
Given Cosina had active rangefinder camera expertise and off-shelf components, I would expect the design process went two ways with Cosina answering an RFP from Zeiss with a design/build bid. It may have helped that the two companies already had a working relationship in regards to lens manufacture.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 03-26-2021 at 01:27 PM.
03-30-2021, 12:35 PM - 2 Likes   #7724
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Got these items from a guy selling most of his stuff so that he could travel the world in an RV. Really nice German gentleman who clearly had good taste and took good care of his gear.
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03-30-2021, 01:56 PM   #7725
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Along with the above lenses and some other odds and ends, I got these....
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