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04-19-2019, 09:22 AM   #6001
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QuoteOriginally posted by Swift1 Quote
Here you go Steve
I remember reading a review of jupiter ltm mount lenses by an avid Leica shooter. He said that Leica people look down at Soviet lenses arguing that they are not sharp. He looked at the design of the lenses and argued that Soviet lenses were based on the contax design but have ltm mount, so he said that because of inherent design differences Soviet lenses are not sharp on Leica bodies. So his conclusion was that if you use the lens on the body for which it was designed the results will be fine. All of that to say, just curious what your experience is using Soviet lenses on Leica.

04-19-2019, 09:45 AM   #6002
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I'm not sure what mounting it on one type of body vs another would change, unless the ltm version doesn't correctly account for the flange distance difference or the rangefinder cam.
04-19-2019, 10:42 AM   #6003
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QuoteOriginally posted by abruzzi Quote
I'm not sure what mounting it on one type of body vs another would change, unless the ltm version doesn't correctly account for the flange distance difference or the rangefinder cam.
I read it a while back, so can't remember the detailed argument, just the take away message
04-19-2019, 10:55 AM   #6004
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QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
I remember reading a review of jupiter ltm mount lenses by an avid Leica shooter. He said that Leica people look down at Soviet lenses arguing that they are not sharp. He looked at the design of the lenses and argued that Soviet lenses were based on the contax design but have ltm mount, so he said that because of inherent design differences Soviet lenses are not sharp on Leica bodies. So his conclusion was that if you use the lens on the body for which it was designed the results will be fine. All of that to say, just curious what your experience is using Soviet lenses on Leica.
I have read some of the arguments concerning the Leica vs Contax lens design/focal plane differences, and while there is likely a technical basis for this, I think most of it amounts to nothing.
I have used a Jupiter-12, Industar-61, Jupiter-8, (all based on Zeiss designs) on my Zorki 4, and Canon 7 (both based on Leica design), and these lenses focus fine on those bodies.

04-19-2019, 11:20 AM - 1 Like   #6005
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QuoteOriginally posted by IgorZ Quote
...argued that Soviet lenses were based on the contax design but have ltm mount, so he said that because of inherent design differences Soviet lenses are not sharp on Leica bodies. So his conclusion was that if you use the lens on the body for which it was designed the results will be fine. All of that to say, just curious what your experience is using Soviet lenses on Leica.
Not quite true. Without going into technical depth and history, it is enough to say that the Soviet LTM lenses have a lens-side cam helicoid pitch appropriate for a longer focal length than that typical for most other LTM lenses. When matched to a properly calibrated Soviet body,* they produce accurate rangefinder focus at all distances. However, when used with a properly calibrated Leica body, they become progressively inaccurate as the distance approaches infinity. The inaccuracy is insignificant with wide angle and normal lenses at moderate apertures (say f/3.5 and narrower), but might be objectionable with longer lenses. The J-12 is normally just fine as are most normals. I have the J-12 and J-8 in both Contax/Kiev and LTM mounts and the performance in general shooting is indistinguishable on the bodies I own.

There are extensive discussions on the Rangefinder Forum and elsewhere and also information about a hack (shims) to allow better accuracy at distance than close up. IIRC, one of the members over there will do the modification for a fee.


Steve

* The focus adjust on the body is a cam-like lever that matches the construction of the lens.
04-19-2019, 11:23 AM   #6006
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The FED bodies didn't control the flange to film-plane distance accurately, so it was common that their 50mm f3.5 lenses were individually matched to each body before sale so the rangefinder would be accurate. So even mixing lenses between FED bodies isn't wise. However the lens cam can be reworked to work in many cases. I have a 1950s FED that came to me paired with a pre-war "FED" lens that was way off, until both were serviced by a Leica tech. However, lens focus is still off if tried on a Leica, as mentioned by Steve.
While the FED I was a fairly close copy of the 1932 Leica II, the quality control was... at least mixed.
I've had various Industar lenses that were quite far off on Leica bodies, but on a matched FED or Zorki body did OK.
04-19-2019, 03:49 PM   #6007
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Not quite true. Without going into technical depth and history, it is enough to say that the Soviet LTM lenses have a lens-side cam helicoid pitch appropriate for a longer focal length than that typical for most other LTM lenses. When matched to a properly calibrated Soviet body,* they produce accurate rangefinder focus at all distances. However, when used with a properly calibrated Leica body, they become progressively inaccurate as the distance approaches infinity. The inaccuracy is insignificant with wide angle and normal lenses at moderate apertures (say f/3.5 and narrower), but might be objectionable with longer lenses. The J-12 is normally just fine as are most normals. I have the J-12 and J-8 in both Contax/Kiev and LTM mounts and the performance in general shooting is indistinguishable on the bodies I own.

There are extensive discussions on the Rangefinder Forum and elsewhere and also information about a hack (shims) to allow better accuracy at distance than close up. IIRC, one of the members over there will do the modification for a fee.


Steve

* The focus adjust on the body is a cam-like lever that matches the construction of the lens.

That's interesting, thanks!

04-19-2019, 04:27 PM   #6008
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomB_tx Quote
The FED bodies didn't control the flange to film-plane distance accurately, so it was common that their 50mm f3.5 lenses were individually matched to each body before sale so the rangefinder would be accurate. So even mixing lenses between FED bodies isn't wise. However the lens cam can be reworked to work in many cases. I have a 1950s FED that came to me paired with a pre-war "FED" lens that was way off, until both were serviced by a Leica tech. However, lens focus is still off if tried on a Leica, as mentioned by Steve.
While the FED I was a fairly close copy of the 1932 Leica II, the quality control was... at least mixed.
I've had various Industar lenses that were quite far off on Leica bodies, but on a matched FED or Zorki body did OK.
I've heard that this is an issue with earlier FEDs--mainly the prewar and the "NKVD" models, but not so much with later modes. They also had an issue with not really being metric. I'm heading to Russia in a month, and my goal is to come back with a Kiev (IIa preferably) and a FED--probably a FED-2, but if I find a very early model, I might snag it. My goal is to get actual working shooters, not shelf queens, and the FED-2 looks more useful than an early FED.
04-19-2019, 06:11 PM   #6009
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomB_tx Quote
The FED bodies didn't control the flange to film-plane distance accurately, so it was common that their 50mm f3.5 lenses were individually matched to each body before sale so the rangefinder would be accurate. So even mixing lenses between FED bodies isn't wise. However the lens cam can be reworked to work in many cases. I have a 1950s FED that came to me paired with a pre-war "FED" lens that was way off, until both were serviced by a Leica tech. However, lens focus is still off if tried on a Leica, as mentioned by Steve.
While the FED I was a fairly close copy of the 1932 Leica II, the quality control was... at least mixed.
I've had various Industar lenses that were quite far off on Leica bodies, but on a matched FED or Zorki body did OK.
Whether a lens must be matched depends on the FED and when it was made. While the early Leica clones were not properly standardized for flange distance, my early 60s FED 2 (type D6/PEO475) is a completely different camera. It works fine with either of my black body Jupiter 8s (1976 and 1984, KMZ) well as my 1971, FED-made, Industar 61 "zebra". The same is true of my 1975 Zorki 4K. I have a couple of test rolls yet to develop with these lenses adapted on my Bessa R3M, so we will see if there are problems.

Addendum:
I totally forgot that I shoot my Canon P exclusively with Soviet LTM lenses.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-19-2019 at 10:12 PM.
04-19-2019, 06:26 PM - 1 Like   #6010
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QuoteOriginally posted by abruzzi Quote
I'm heading to Russia in a month, and my goal is to come back with a Kiev (IIa preferably) and a FED--probably a FED-2, but if I find a very early model, I might snag it. My goal is to get actual working shooters, not shelf queens, and the FED-2 looks more useful than an early FED.
I owned a Kiev IIa for awhile and did a side-by-side comparison with my Kiev 4A. Click through on the image below to go to the first page of the series of photos with accompanying notes. The photos on Flickr also have mouse-over call-out notes.


Kiev 4A on the left and Kiev IIa on the right

While the 4A has many improvements, the IIa has a much nicer viewfinder/rangefinder and is equivalent to that on the Contax II. Luxurious is the word that comes to my mind in regards to the IIa. Unfortunately, that camera had serious rangefinder issues that required an actual repair. Fedka would have provided the repair as warranty service, but he had lost his Kiev tech and had to simply accept the camera back as a return for refund.


Steve
05-02-2019, 05:05 PM - 1 Like   #6011
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Yes, this was cross-posted on the "latest acquisition" thread, but so much KMZ finder goodness should not go wasted. This KMZ Turret Multi-Finder is one of the most pleasant surprises I have had in the 20 years or so of eBay purchases. Not only was its condition way beyond expectations, but the performance is also far beyond what I might usually expect from Russian goods made after the collapse of the Soviet Union (I believe the year of production was 2002.)


Up Close and Personal...




...and the wide view, firmly attached...




For details, click through to the Flickr pages.


Steve
05-02-2019, 05:26 PM   #6012
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I no longer have the finder, having replaced it with a slightly more compact Nikon one, but this was mine:




I've only ever seen the actual Kiev-version of that finder once, and at the price that was being asked for it it made far more sense to buy the FED/Zorki version instead.

Last edited by g026r; 05-02-2019 at 05:43 PM.
05-02-2019, 05:35 PM   #6013
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I’m hoping to find one for my Kiev when I pick it up in a couple weeks. I dont know how current their website is, but this place in St. Petersburg seems to have one:

???????????? ?????????????

I’ll be getting a 50/2 Jupiter 8, and I’m hoping to find a 35 (Jupiter 12) and something long—preferably an 85 (Jupiter 9), but for price I may have to get a 135.(Jupiter 11)
05-02-2019, 05:42 PM   #6014
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The price that website is showing for both the Jupiter-8M and the Jupiter-12 are steals compared to what they cost in North America.
05-02-2019, 07:09 PM   #6015
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I’m pretty sure that’s where I got my Fed in 2912. IIRC it was 4,000 rubles for the body, 50 mm Industar, 35mm wide angle, cassette, and two rolls of film.

No English, but pretty helpful.

And shelves full of neat stuff for decent prices.

Though if I remember right, they were very well aware that rare, valuable stuff was rare and valuable...

-Eric
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