which nd filter to deal with 1/1000 max shutter speed?

loco · 07-19-2013, 04:17 PM

Hi guys,

I've had my Pentax MX for a couple days now and already I'm realizing that 1/1000 max shutter speed is a real handicap without an ND filter. Problem is I suck at math and was hoping someone could recommend which type of ND filter is most useful to help offset this limitation. I'm using ISO 400 film right now, and might be sticking with that mostly as a versatile speed. At least while I'm learning this camera.

I do have a 10 stop ND filter for my DSLR but I'm betting that's overkill.

Also, with film would it be wiser to get a graduated filter or just a regular ND filter?

Thanks much!!

**mattt** · 07-19-2013, 05:16 PM

If you are shutter capping at your min aperture a 3 stop ND filter will be fine. (I always carry one) 3 stops if you are right at the bubble... is 1/250 which will not introduce any camera shake.

loco · 07-19-2013, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by mattt

If you are shutter capping at your min aperture a 3 stop ND filter will be fine. (I always carry one) 3 stops if you are right at the bubble... is 1/250 which will not introduce any camera shake.

Hi Matt, I am not sure what shutter capping means. What I'm running into is the 1/1000 sec max shutter is not fast enough in bright light with ISO 400 film. I don't necessarily want to use a smaller aperture than, say, f/8 to compensate, so I figured an ND filter would cut the light and allow me to get a correct exposure. But I don't want to cut too much light either.

I'm guessing the 3 stop is what I want. Thanks!

**mattt** · 07-19-2013, 05:25 PM

Capped at max shutter... no more adjustment left... Its my own lingo - the old film guys here are probably rolling their eyes

loco · 07-19-2013, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by mattt

Capped at max shutter... no more adjustment left... Its my own lingo - the old film guys here are probably rolling their eyes

LOL, I see! I'm ordering a 3 stop filter then. Thanks!

Tanzer · 07-19-2013, 05:36 PM

3 stops is a factor of 8 (i.e., 2 x 2 x 2), so that would take you to down to 1/125 sec, I believe ....

**mattt** · 07-19-2013, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by Tanzer

3 stops is a factor of 8 (i.e., 2 x 2 x 2), so that would take you to down to 1/125 sec, I believe ....

Exactly, but if the camera can shoot at 1/1000 there would be no need to use a filter...

**rbefly** · 07-19-2013, 06:03 PM

Hello Lori,
I agree with Matt, a 3-stop ND would do the trick and is a handy reduction value for many applications.
This would be labled 'ND 8' followed by the filter size in mm.
Some quick, painless math; Say the exposure is 1/1000s at f/4.0 with ISO 400 film, OK?
We're going to only reduce the shutter speed (with an ND 8), not change f/stop or ISO.
A 3 stop reduction works like this;

1st stop reduces the light reaching the film by one f/stop. Half the light, twice the time (shutter speed) required to have the same exposure value, so...
Your shutter speed is now 1/500s.
You could achieve the same exposure value by either stopping down to f/5.6, switching to ISO 200 film, or using a ND 2.

2nd stop reduces the light reaching the film by 2 stops.
Your shutter speed is now 1/250s.
You could also achieve this by stopping down to f/8.0, using ISO 100 film or using a ND 4.

3rd stop (ND 8) reduces the light reaching the film by 3 stops.
Your shutter speed is now 1/125s.
You could also achieve this by stopping down to f/11.0 or switching to ISO 50.
I'd suggest a ND 8 in your most-used filter size, use it for a few different scenes and see if you like the results. In addition to reducing shutter speeds so you can shoot at wider apertures (usually to control depth of field), it also allows you to shoot 'motion' shots, blurring moving objects like cars, water, clouds and so on.
For what it's worth, the other necessary filter for digital and film work, the circular polarizer (CPL) reduces light by about 1 to 1-1/2 stops and is very handy for poping out clouds from a blue sky, increasing contrast overall and cutting down reflections from shiny surfaces.
Hope this helps!

EDIT Just saw your latest post...Lori, are you saying the 1/1000s isn't FAST enough? If that's the case, you don't want ND filters, they slow the speed down.You want faster film and wider apertures.
Ron

**ChrisPlatt** · 07-19-2013, 06:06 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by loco

I've had my Pentax MX for a couple days now and already I'm realizing that 1/1000 max shutter speed is a real handicap without an ND filter.

In actual use you will seldom run into any problem using ISO 400 speed or lower film.
Save your money on the ND filter and buy film.

Chris

**mattt** · 07-19-2013, 06:20 PM

From f8 you have at least 2 full stops to go... I like Chris' idea.

Not a Number · 07-19-2013, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by rbefly

Hello Lori,
I agree with Matt, a 3-stop ND would do the trick and is a handy reduction value for many applications.
This would be labled 'ND 8' followed by the filter size in mm.
Some quick, painless math; Say the exposure is 1/1000s at f/4.0 with ISO 400 film, OK?
We're going to only reduce the shutter speed (with an ND 8), not change f/stop or ISO.

This is film we are talking about. You can't simply change the ISO without adjusting the development time and/or developer concentration (known as pushing or pulling). Films can only be pushed or pulled so much and there will be some degradation of the image (color shifting, grain increase, loss of highlight and/or shadow detail etc.) The amount of f-stops you can push or pull depends on the characteristics (mainly latitude) of the film. Multiple ISO films require a different development time for a given ISO. The only practical way you can change ISO with film on the fly is clip the frames and process each according to the amount of push/pull or ISO in the case of multi-ISO film. Not very practical if you think about it as you'd need a darkroom or changing bag and even so you will lose frames to make up the leader.

**gofour3** · 07-19-2013, 08:14 PM

I agree with Chris, just use slower film.

For colour film 50 – 100 ISO is fast enough for daylight use, using maybe a skylight filter with a filter factor of 1.1x.

For b&w film I’d go with 100 – 400 ISO, as the contrast filters have a higher FF from 2x (yellow Y2) to 6x (red R2)

Your camera's TTL meter will compensate for the light loss, so you don’t have to remember these numbers unless you use a hand held meter.

Phil.

Kozlok · 07-19-2013, 08:23 PM

Sunny 16 says you'll be at 1/400 on a sunny day at f16. Assume a very bright day, and you're at 1/800. If you want to go to f8 at 1/800, you'd need a 2 stop filter. 3 should be safe for into the sun at sunset at f16, probably useable everywhere at f11 to 8.

**gofour3** · 07-19-2013, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Kozlok

Sunny 16 says you'll be at 1/400 on a sunny day at f16. Assume a very bright day, and you're at 1/800. If you want to go to f8 at 1/800, you'd need a 2 stop filter. 3 should be safe for into the sun at sunset at f16, probably useable everywhere at f11 to 8.

The MX is an all manual film camera with shutter speeds of 1s, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/250, 1/500 & 1/1000. (No aperture priority)

You don’t really need a ND filter for everyday film shooting. Just use 100 ISO film and all is well. You will mostly shoot around 1/125 and f8 - f16.

Phil.

**dms** · 07-19-2013, 08:36 PM

Sunny f/16 rule. Sunny conditions f/16 at 1/iso--your case 1/400s. So f/11 at 1/800s (1.e., about 1/1000s). So to use f/8 you need 1 stop ND, to use f/5.6 you need 2 stop ND, to use f/4 you need 3 stop. Etc. But if using color negative film its not a bad idea to overexpose by 1 stop. So tell the camera your iso 400 film is really 200, or apply a -1 e.v. In which case your 3 stop ND filter would allow f/2.8 at 1/1000s. But as others said likely better to use film that fits the conditions--iso 100 film really does cover lots of situations. BTW in 50+ years of (lots of) photography I doubt if I ever used above 1/500s--so if you need it a lot it sounds like you should rethink things.

07-19-2013, 04:17 PM	#1
loco Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Virginia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,846	which nd filter to deal with 1/1000 max shutter speed? Hi guys, I've had my Pentax MX for a couple days now and already I'm realizing that 1/1000 max shutter speed is a real handicap without an ND filter. Problem is I suck at math and was hoping someone could recommend which type of ND filter is most useful to help offset this limitation. I'm using ISO 400 film right now, and might be sticking with that mostly as a versatile speed. At least while I'm learning this camera. I do have a 10 stop ND filter for my DSLR but I'm betting that's overkill. Also, with film would it be wiser to get a graduated filter or just a regular ND filter? Thanks much!!

07-19-2013, 06:03 PM	#8
rbefly Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Denver, Colorado Photos: Albums Posts: 2,030	ND Slowdown? Hello Lori, I agree with Matt, a 3-stop ND would do the trick and is a handy reduction value for many applications. This would be labled 'ND 8' followed by the filter size in mm. Some quick, painless math; Say the exposure is 1/1000s at f/4.0 with ISO 400 film, OK? We're going to only reduce the shutter speed (with an ND 8), not change f/stop or ISO. A 3 stop reduction works like this; 1st stop reduces the light reaching the film by one f/stop. Half the light, twice the time (shutter speed) required to have the same exposure value, so... Your shutter speed is now 1/500s. You could achieve the same exposure value by either stopping down to f/5.6, switching to ISO 200 film, or using a ND 2. 2nd stop reduces the light reaching the film by 2 stops. Your shutter speed is now 1/250s. You could also achieve this by stopping down to f/8.0, using ISO 100 film or using a ND 4. 3rd stop (ND 8) reduces the light reaching the film by 3 stops. Your shutter speed is now 1/125s. You could also achieve this by stopping down to f/11.0 or switching to ISO 50. I'd suggest a ND 8 in your most-used filter size, use it for a few different scenes and see if you like the results. In addition to reducing shutter speeds so you can shoot at wider apertures (usually to control depth of field), it also allows you to shoot 'motion' shots, blurring moving objects like cars, water, clouds and so on. For what it's worth, the other necessary filter for digital and film work, the circular polarizer (CPL) reduces light by about 1 to 1-1/2 stops and is very handy for poping out clouds from a blue sky, increasing contrast overall and cutting down reflections from shiny surfaces. Hope this helps! EDIT Just saw your latest post...Lori, are you saying the 1/1000s isn't FAST enough? If that's the case, you don't want ND filters, they slow the speed down.You want faster film and wider apertures. Ron

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
How to set shutter speed with ISO..	JWS	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	6	07-06-2012 08:20 PM
Pentax k5 with 50mm 1:1.7 and shutter speed	smack1019	Pentax K-5 & K-5 II	10	03-04-2012 03:52 PM
ND Filter shutter speed example	Smilesy	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	31	10-07-2011 08:08 PM
Is this a good deal? Cokin ND filter pack...	Shogo	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	8	05-25-2009 11:12 AM
Max shutter speed halved in rear curtain.	Deni	Photographic Technique	9	05-12-2008 04:35 AM

07-19-2013, 05:16 PM	#2
mattt Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,907	If you are shutter capping at your min aperture a 3 stop ND filter will be fine. (I always carry one) 3 stops if you are right at the bubble... is 1/250 which will not introduce any camera shake.

07-19-2013, 05:23 PM	#3
loco Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Virginia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,846 Original Poster	Originally posted by mattt If you are shutter capping at your min aperture a 3 stop ND filter will be fine. (I always carry one) 3 stops if you are right at the bubble... is 1/250 which will not introduce any camera shake. Hi Matt, I am not sure what shutter capping means. What I'm running into is the 1/1000 sec max shutter is not fast enough in bright light with ISO 400 film. I don't necessarily want to use a smaller aperture than, say, f/8 to compensate, so I figured an ND filter would cut the light and allow me to get a correct exposure. But I don't want to cut too much light either. I'm guessing the 3 stop is what I want. Thanks!

07-19-2013, 05:25 PM	#4
mattt Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,907	Capped at max shutter... no more adjustment left... Its my own lingo - the old film guys here are probably rolling their eyes

07-19-2013, 05:34 PM	#5
loco Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Virginia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,846 Original Poster	Originally posted by mattt Capped at max shutter... no more adjustment left... Its my own lingo - the old film guys here are probably rolling their eyes LOL, I see! I'm ordering a 3 stop filter then. Thanks!

07-19-2013, 05:36 PM	#6
Tanzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Perrineville, NJ Posts: 1,375	3 stops is a factor of 8 (i.e., 2 x 2 x 2), so that would take you to down to 1/125 sec, I believe ....

07-19-2013, 05:44 PM	#7
mattt Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,907	Originally posted by Tanzer 3 stops is a factor of 8 (i.e., 2 x 2 x 2), so that would take you to down to 1/125 sec, I believe .... Exactly, but if the camera can shoot at 1/1000 there would be no need to use a filter...

07-19-2013, 06:06 PM - 1 Like	#9
ChrisPlatt Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rockaway Beach NYC Posts: 7,694	Originally posted by loco I've had my Pentax MX for a couple days now and already I'm realizing that 1/1000 max shutter speed is a real handicap without an ND filter. In actual use you will seldom run into any problem using ISO 400 speed or lower film. Save your money on the ND filter and buy film. Chris

07-19-2013, 06:20 PM	#10
mattt Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,907	From f8 you have at least 2 full stops to go... I like Chris' idea.

07-19-2013, 06:48 PM	#11
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Originally posted by rbefly Hello Lori, I agree with Matt, a 3-stop ND would do the trick and is a handy reduction value for many applications. This would be labled 'ND 8' followed by the filter size in mm. Some quick, painless math; Say the exposure is 1/1000s at f/4.0 with ISO 400 film, OK? We're going to only reduce the shutter speed (with an ND 8), not change f/stop or ISO. This is film we are talking about. You can't simply change the ISO without adjusting the development time and/or developer concentration (known as pushing or pulling). Films can only be pushed or pulled so much and there will be some degradation of the image (color shifting, grain increase, loss of highlight and/or shadow detail etc.) The amount of f-stops you can push or pull depends on the characteristics (mainly latitude) of the film. Multiple ISO films require a different development time for a given ISO. The only practical way you can change ISO with film on the fly is clip the frames and process each according to the amount of push/pull or ISO in the case of multi-ISO film. Not very practical if you think about it as you'd need a darkroom or changing bag and even so you will lose frames to make up the leader.

07-19-2013, 08:14 PM	#12
gofour3 Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 8,091	I agree with Chris, just use slower film. For colour film 50 – 100 ISO is fast enough for daylight use, using maybe a skylight filter with a filter factor of 1.1x. For b&w film I’d go with 100 – 400 ISO, as the contrast filters have a higher FF from 2x (yellow Y2) to 6x (red R2) Your camera's TTL meter will compensate for the light loss, so you don’t have to remember these numbers unless you use a hand held meter. Phil.

07-19-2013, 08:23 PM	#13
Kozlok Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albuquerque Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,148	Sunny 16 says you'll be at 1/400 on a sunny day at f16. Assume a very bright day, and you're at 1/800. If you want to go to f8 at 1/800, you'd need a 2 stop filter. 3 should be safe for into the sun at sunset at f16, probably useable everywhere at f11 to 8.

07-19-2013, 08:31 PM	#14
gofour3 Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 8,091	Originally posted by Kozlok Sunny 16 says you'll be at 1/400 on a sunny day at f16. Assume a very bright day, and you're at 1/800. If you want to go to f8 at 1/800, you'd need a 2 stop filter. 3 should be safe for into the sun at sunset at f16, probably useable everywhere at f11 to 8. The MX is an all manual film camera with shutter speeds of 1s, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/250, 1/500 & 1/1000. (No aperture priority) You don’t really need a ND filter for everyday film shooting. Just use 100 ISO film and all is well. You will mostly shoot around 1/125 and f8 - f16. Phil.

07-19-2013, 08:36 PM	#15
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	Sunny f/16 rule. Sunny conditions f/16 at 1/iso--your case 1/400s. So f/11 at 1/800s (1.e., about 1/1000s). So to use f/8 you need 1 stop ND, to use f/5.6 you need 2 stop ND, to use f/4 you need 3 stop. Etc. But if using color negative film its not a bad idea to overexpose by 1 stop. So tell the camera your iso 400 film is really 200, or apply a -1 e.v. In which case your 3 stop ND filter would allow f/2.8 at 1/1000s. But as others said likely better to use film that fits the conditions--iso 100 film really does cover lots of situations. BTW in 50+ years of (lots of) photography I doubt if I ever used above 1/500s--so if you need it a lot it sounds like you should rethink things.