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03-06-2014, 05:09 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpartanD63 Quote
1. If I've read correctly, the process for getting exposure right for film is kinda the opposite of digital? "Expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights" or something like that, instead of exposing for the highlights and bringing up the shadows as you would with digital?
2. I didn't notice that accessory. And I did kinda like the idea of being able to change mid roll, but even 16 shots doesn't seem like enough to really need the option.
3. Yeah, I'm not sure how much I'd play with slides, but having the option to more reliably nail the exposure should help when I do.
4. THAT is a major reason I want to go with the Pentax. I have NEVER had a bad Pentax lens (aside for the DA*s with the AF motor... )
1. B&W is about PROPER exposure and PROPER development. Basically, you don't want your shadows lower than 2 stops below the middle tones, otherwise they'll just be black. If there's a ton of contrast in the scene, you can always pull development to reduce contrast, and pair it with a comparable increase in exposure. Not a big deal if you use variable contrast paper, and don't shoot somewhere with really harsh light and deep shadows.

2. It's finger powered, as opposed to using batteries, which is nice. 16 shots is a decent amount, actually. When I had one back, I lost quite a few shots in good light. With MF, you have to stop down more to get the same DOF, since lenses are longer. Pair that with the bigger mirror and shutter, and you lose more speeds that you can shoot handheld. For me at least, evening and morning twilight are a pain. I was at f/11 to get necessary DOF, and could get 1/30 on the shutter... That resulted in quite a bit of shake, and blurry shots. Being able to pop over to 400 speed would've gotten me up to 1/125. Without MLU (I don't think the 645N has MLU either) I try to stick to 1/500 to 1/60, and longer than 1 second. The shake and noise startled me the first time I shot a MF camera. Much louder and more forceful than the MX.

3. Slides are magical, especially big ones. If you do any landscapes in good light, treat yourself to a roll of Provia sometime =)

4. I kind of regret not going Pentax for MF, but the ETRS stuff was a bit cheaper, more modular, leaf shutters with all lenses, and I shoot almost all B&W, so the slightly cooler rendering of my lenses isn't a big deal. They're all VERY sharp, though!

Enjoy the bigger negatives! Try not to end up a film size junkie like me, and run off and buy a couple 4x5 cameras

03-06-2014, 07:47 PM   #47
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The 645N sounds like a good fit for you. When I made the jump recently into MF, I went for the 6x7 because a waist-level finder was a must...plus there's the 105/2.4! But yes, part of me would definitely like the 645N for the ergonomics, built-in meter, smaller lenses, AF if I want it, etc. I think if I branch out further into MF though, it might be something like one of the Fuji rangefinders...say, the GA645. Point-n-shoot MF!
03-06-2014, 08:28 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by fretlessdavis Quote
1. B&W is about PROPER exposure and PROPER development. Basically, you don't want your shadows lower than 2 stops below the middle tones, otherwise they'll just be black. If there's a ton of contrast in the scene, you can always pull development to reduce contrast, and pair it with a comparable increase in exposure. Not a big deal if you use variable contrast paper, and don't shoot somewhere with really harsh light and deep shadows.

2. It's finger powered, as opposed to using batteries, which is nice. 16 shots is a decent amount, actually. When I had one back, I lost quite a few shots in good light. With MF, you have to stop down more to get the same DOF, since lenses are longer. Pair that with the bigger mirror and shutter, and you lose more speeds that you can shoot handheld. For me at least, evening and morning twilight are a pain. I was at f/11 to get necessary DOF, and could get 1/30 on the shutter... That resulted in quite a bit of shake, and blurry shots. Being able to pop over to 400 speed would've gotten me up to 1/125. Without MLU (I don't think the 645N has MLU either) I try to stick to 1/500 to 1/60, and longer than 1 second. The shake and noise startled me the first time I shot a MF camera. Much louder and more forceful than the MX.

3. Slides are magical, especially big ones. If you do any landscapes in good light, treat yourself to a roll of Provia sometime =)

4. I kind of regret not going Pentax for MF, but the ETRS stuff was a bit cheaper, more modular, leaf shutters with all lenses, and I shoot almost all B&W, so the slightly cooler rendering of my lenses isn't a big deal. They're all VERY sharp, though!

Enjoy the bigger negatives! Try not to end up a film size junkie like me, and run off and buy a couple 4x5 cameras
I'll have to keep all of these ideas in mind. And yeah, the ETRS looks nice... but... I'm a Pentax fanboy

QuoteOriginally posted by filoxophy Quote
The 645N sounds like a good fit for you. When I made the jump recently into MF, I went for the 6x7 because a waist-level finder was a must...plus there's the 105/2.4! But yes, part of me would definitely like the 645N for the ergonomics, built-in meter, smaller lenses, AF if I want it, etc. I think if I branch out further into MF though, it might be something like one of the Fuji rangefinders...say, the GA645. Point-n-shoot MF!
I think it was that 105/2.4 that REALLY caught my eye with the 6x7. I need to do some research to find some of that magic for 645. BTW, just out of curiosity, what's the advantage you see of having the waist-level finder?

EDIT: Of course, when I mention this plan to the less... photographically inclined, they say, "but you've already got a film camera..." "Not one like this..."

Last edited by SpartanD63; 03-06-2014 at 08:33 PM.
03-07-2014, 07:46 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpartanD63 Quote
I'll have to keep all of these ideas in mind. And yeah, the ETRS looks nice... but... I'm a Pentax fanboy



I think it was that 105/2.4 that REALLY caught my eye with the 6x7. I need to do some research to find some of that magic for 645. BTW, just out of curiosity, what's the advantage you see of having the waist-level finder?

EDIT: Of course, when I mention this plan to the less... photographically inclined, they say, "but you've already got a film camera..." "Not one like this..."
The 75mm 645 lens will be approximately the same as the 105 on the 6x7. Hard to say if it really stacks up in all aspects, though.

The waistlevel is nice. I backpack with my kit, so I can strip off the grip and swap on the waistlevel to get something that's not any more bulky than a DSLR.

Also, for any kind of people shots, even ones that are not candid-- when you lift a monster of a camera up to your eye, it can change their whole demeanor. A wasitlevel doesn't make it obvious what you're doing for candids, and can make for some interesting perspective, too. I can handhold at slower speeds with a waistlevel better, too, as I can brace it against my chest.

03-07-2014, 07:58 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpartanD63 Quote
BTW, just out of curiosity, what's the advantage you see of having the waist-level finder?
For me, it's a couple reasons. 100% frame coverage, two-eye viewing of the image, slightly lighter and smaller. I also feel less like I'm "aiming" the camera at people--it makes me less self-conscious. (A personal problem, I know. ) For me the only downside is the extreme awkwardness involved in getting a portrait orientation. A definite downside. But hey, I can crop a 645 vertical out of the 6x7 horizontal!

Edit: fretlessdavis said it well!
03-08-2014, 05:52 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by filoxophy Quote
For me the only downside is the extreme awkwardness involved in getting a portrait orientation. A definite downside.
I didn't even think of how that would work, but now that I have it's a very amusing idea.

Anyway, I should be getting a 645N by the end of the month. And, funds permitting, either a 75 or 120/150mm soon after. Then all I'll need will be film and chemicals.

Last edited by SpartanD63; 03-08-2014 at 08:32 PM.
03-08-2014, 08:24 PM   #52
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Spartan: exposure for slide film is similar to that for digital: Don't blow out the highlights. Exposure for print film is more forgiving, and it is not the final result. General idea is to overexpose if you have to guess with print film.
03-08-2014, 08:37 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
Spartan: exposure for slide film is similar to that for digital: Don't blow out the highlights. Exposure for print film is more forgiving, and it is not the final result. General idea is to overexpose if you have to guess with print film.
I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the tip!

03-09-2014, 12:54 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by PPPPPP42 Quote
Curious to see whats in that "photo enlarger" box. If it were my luck it would turn out to be a Kodak slide projector labeled by an idiot.
The enlarger is a Bogen (not too sure what model) with a Voss 50mm/3.5 lens. From a quick Google search, I haven't found many comments in favor of this enlarger over others. And the only... plate? film holder? thingy? (I have no idea what the "official" name is) I have is the 35mm one. So that means no MF on it.

I think I'll just save up for the Beseler 23C you mentioned a bit ago, if I decide I want to do analogue prints.

Last edited by SpartanD63; 03-09-2014 at 01:01 PM.
03-09-2014, 09:29 PM   #55
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Something you might want to consider, if you are in no rush for a darkroom right now just keep an eye on your local craiglist, that way when a good setup comes along for cheap you can jump on it right away.
Look for a reasonably complete darkroom someone is dumping if you can find it, you will need new paper and chemicals, but the rest is nice to have because it adds up really fast if you have to piecemeal it all together.

This is an example of what turned up by just typing "beseler" into my local craigs, note that you can use a color head to make black and white prints though I forget how you go about adjusting the knobs for that, color heads are normally much more expensive.:
Beseler dichro 67 enlarger (its $49 if the ad disappears)
Compare that with what one costs new:
Beseler Printmaker 67 Dichro (Color) Enlarger 6768 B&H Photo

So don't just search for one model, search for what is available like "enlarger" or "darkroom" and then research what you find to see its capabilities for format and print size limits and whats all available for it and how well they are liked.
I once saw an ad for a free 23c II that said it was put out with the trash and would be taken on trash day otherwise. Someone snapped that up as they are durable and easy to repair if broken and this one looked just fine and complete, was taken immediately of course.
It kinda annoys me that for no apparent reason this site seems to be down, it was just some guys page but had a ton of info on the 23c model, I woulda saved it if I knew it was going to disappear as it had almost a complete accessory part list and specs:
http://www.oresteen.com/bess23c.htm
I think the guy might actually post on APUG so someone might be able to find out if its permanently gone and if the data can be had.

EDIT: Actually if baffles me that anyone would buy new expensive darkroom stuff, people are literally throwing the stuff away, my complete darkroom was $50.

Last edited by PPPPPP42; 03-09-2014 at 10:24 PM.
03-10-2014, 05:19 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by PPPPPP42 Quote
Something you might want to consider, if you are in no rush for a darkroom right now just keep an eye on your local craiglist, that way when a good setup comes along for cheap you can jump on it right away.
Look for a reasonably complete darkroom someone is dumping if you can find it, you will need new paper and chemicals, but the rest is nice to have because it adds up really fast if you have to piecemeal it all together.

This is an example of what turned up by just typing "beseler" into my local craigs, note that you can use a color head to make black and white prints though I forget how you go about adjusting the knobs for that, color heads are normally much more expensive.:
Beseler dichro 67 enlarger (its $49 if the ad disappears)
Compare that with what one costs new:
Beseler Printmaker 67 Dichro (Color) Enlarger 6768 B&H Photo

So don't just search for one model, search for what is available like "enlarger" or "darkroom" and then research what you find to see its capabilities for format and print size limits and whats all available for it and how well they are liked.
I once saw an ad for a free 23c II that said it was put out with the trash and would be taken on trash day otherwise. Someone snapped that up as they are durable and easy to repair if broken and this one looked just fine and complete, was taken immediately of course.
It kinda annoys me that for no apparent reason this site seems to be down, it was just some guys page but had a ton of info on the 23c model, I woulda saved it if I knew it was going to disappear as it had almost a complete accessory part list and specs:
http://www.oresteen.com/bess23c.htm
I think the guy might actually post on APUG so someone might be able to find out if its permanently gone and if the data can be had.

EDIT: Actually if baffles me that anyone would buy new expensive darkroom stuff, people are literally throwing the stuff away, my complete darkroom was $50.
Yeah. I was planning on going the used route. But that price difference is almost comical. I didn't think stuff that sells used for an average of $50-150 would cost $700 new. That's absolutely insane.
03-10-2014, 09:51 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpartanD63 Quote
Alright. Doing a bit of reading, I think I'll go for medium format, specifically a 645N.

Any further thoughts on my choice of model? Any film suggestions? (My only previous film experience was just the cheapest 35mm stuff Target had xD) And stuff for developing at home (at least B&W)?
Try out a variety of films, you'll probably find your self stocking up and shooting sevarl of these depending on the subject you plan to shoot.

For black & white you can't go wrong with classic Professional Tri-X; Ilford and Acros are also very popular. (btw, i recommend ilford multi-grade fiber paper and D-76 developer when you get to start printing.

For color there's always Velvia (My favorite) and Porta. Ektachrome has been discontinued over the last several years so if you can grab some with a decent date that has been stored frozen, I'd say go for it, Ektachrome is a great film and the end of an era.

---------- Post added 03-10-2014 at 11:55 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by johnsey Quote
Try out a variety of films, you'll probably find your self stocking up and shooting sevarl of these depending on the subject you plan to shoot.

For black & white you can't go wrong with classic Professional Tri-X; Ilford and Acros are also very popular. (btw, i recommend ilford multi-grade fiber paper and D-76 developer when you get to start printing.

For color there's always Velvia (My favorite) and Porta. Ektachrome has been discontinued over the last several years so if you can grab some with a decent date that has been stored frozen, I'd say go for it, Ektachrome is a great film and the end of an era.
Forgot to mention to check out the Film Photography Project, they have a podcast and a store front. They can be a decent source for expired film if you don't want to trust the bay.
03-10-2014, 11:41 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnsey Quote
Try out a variety of films, you'll probably find your self stocking up and shooting sevarl of these depending on the subject you plan to shoot.

For black & white you can't go wrong with classic Professional Tri-X; Ilford and Acros are also very popular. (btw, i recommend ilford multi-grade fiber paper and D-76 developer when you get to start printing.

For color there's always Velvia (My favorite) and Porta. Ektachrome has been discontinued over the last several years so if you can grab some with a decent date that has been stored frozen, I'd say go for it, Ektachrome is a great film and the end of an era.

---------- Post added 03-10-2014 at 11:55 AM ----------



Forgot to mention to check out the Film Photography Project, they have a podcast and a store front. They can be a decent source for expired film if you don't want to trust the bay.
Ilford Fp4+ and Tri-X caught my eye for B&W. For color, while I haven't researched much, Velvia and Portra both caught my eye. If I can get ahold of some Ektachrome, I'd gladly try it. (What date would be reasonable? I don't know much about expired film) Beyond that, I'd probably try Ektar, or maybe but I'm not so sure on the color front.

For developing, stuff like ID-11 and D-76 looks pretty handy. And Ilford looks to be pretty good, at least from reviews.

Last edited by SpartanD63; 03-10-2014 at 11:49 AM.
03-10-2014, 01:51 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpartanD63 Quote
Ilford Fp4+ and Tri-X caught my eye for B&W. For color, while I haven't researched much, Velvia and Portra both caught my eye. If I can get ahold of some Ektachrome, I'd gladly try it. (What date would be reasonable? I don't know much about expired film) Beyond that, I'd probably try Ektar, or maybe but I'm not so sure on the color front.

For developing, stuff like ID-11 and D-76 looks pretty handy. And Ilford looks to be pretty good, at least from reviews.
To be honest, if the film was frozen right away its possible to get great results on film even after a few decades. The chemicals will start to break down over time and by storing cool and dry or freezing you can slow down the rate of deterioration (sorta like storing food in the freezer). Just be careful of the supplier, the more reputable the more likely they are telling the truth on storage. I'd try to get something only few years old since they weren't discontinued till recently, and you never can be 100% sure how they were stored their whole life.
03-11-2014, 11:19 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnsey Quote
To be honest, if the film was frozen right away its possible to get great results on film even after a few decades. The chemicals will start to break down over time and by storing cool and dry or freezing you can slow down the rate of deterioration (sorta like storing food in the freezer). Just be careful of the supplier, the more reputable the more likely they are telling the truth on storage. I'd try to get something only few years old since they weren't discontinued till recently, and you never can be 100% sure how they were stored their whole life.
Hmm... So it's more of a guideline? Alright...
I'll have to grab some film from that Project you mentioned.
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