[Gareth.Ig]

I'm finally finished my course, which is allowing me to catch up on my developing and scanning. I have two images, both taken by the same camera and lens, both taken with fresh Delta 400, both developed at exactly the same time in ID11, but one (the rocks, water and snow) has a significantly more grain than the other (the woven reed lid). I'm at a loss. The only thing I know to be different between the two is the temperature at which the film was exposed. The lid was taken inside at room temperature, whereas the other was taken at around -10C. Can anybody explain whats going on here? I'm actually not a huge fan of big grain, so if I can avoid it I would like to!

Thanks,

Gareth

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[stevebrot]

I would suggest that the main difference between the two photos is that #1 has a large amount of sky present. Sky is notorious for making grain more obvious. The reed basket has a lot of detail spanning a wide range of values. That tends to hide grain and the grain can actually make the photo appear sharper than it is. Look in the corners of #2. The grain is there.


Steve

[wkraus]

I think the temperature at shooting can be excluded as a reason for grain. B&W film has different grain characteristics from colour negative film or digital. The latter two tend to have more grain in the shadows and less in the highlights, while B&W is the other way round, so noise can be dominant in unexpected places. And as stevebrot suggested the details can mask the noise (dependent on development B&W film can have a built-in USM effect).

[ChrisPlatt]

Sky is notorious for making grain more obvious.

Absolutely.

T-grain emulsions are not grain free, especially faster ones.
If minimal grain is your goal try a fine grain developer and/or slower film.

Chris

[Gareth.Ig]

Thanks guys for the input. No Delta 400 & ID11 for skys on flat overcast days then.

[Eyewanders]

Flat overcast days for landscape is a bugger to get looking good no matter what the medium.

[titrisol]

Those are excellent shots, the grain appears to be small, and within the normal limits of film photography.
Do not try to minimize it or hide, just live with it. Grain is
and digitizing negatives just exaggerates the grain.

If you want to go smaller use Delta100 and/or develop in Ilfotec DDX your D400 as that will make the grain smaller.
Also try making real prints in which the grain is just part of the process.

[PPPPPP42]

I 2nd titrisol, if you spent the extra money for the good Delta 400 you definitely want the DDX developer to go with it. That combo is actually all I use because I basically wanted 400 speed film with 200 speed grain. I admittedly haven't made any scans or prints large enough to really tell the difference yet though.

[Gareth.Ig]

If you want to go smaller use Delta100 and/or develop in Ilfotec DDX your D400 as that will make the grain smaller.
Also try making real prints in which the grain is just part of the process.

Making a single B&W print I want to hang on my wall is 1 of 2 resolutions I have for 2014. I used DDX as my first developer with good results (with the caveat, I've really only been at this for a year), I'll have to try it again, but I have 5L of ID11 to get through yet and I think I'd like to keep working with the one film and developer so I can better anticipate how the negatives will look. In terms of using ID11, are there ways to get the most out of it? i.e. optimum temperature and dilution for development? I've defaulted to 1+1 and 24C.

[stevebrot]

I've defaulted to 1+1 and 24C.

1+1 @ 24C??? I have never used DDX, but that sounds like a "hot" combination to me. My understanding is that 1+4 @ 20C is more conventional. Or are you saying that is what you use with ID-11? Even then, you might want to drop the temp.


Steve

[PPPPPP42]

Ilford has excellent time charts for using their films and developers together over a pretty wide range of temps. Check their website.

[Gareth.Ig]

1+1 @ 24C??? I have never used DDX, but that sounds like a "hot" combination to me. My understanding is that 1+4 @ 20C is more conventional. Or are you saying that is what you use with ID-11? Even then, you might want to drop the temp.


Steve

Ilford has excellent time charts for using their films and developers together over a pretty wide range of temps. Check their website.

I do use the guidance from Illford, which indicated ID11 at stock, 1+1 or 1+3(4?) with a maximum temperature of 24C. I just figured I would develop at 1+1 and the maximum temperature as it seemed like a reasonable rate to consume the stock ID11 given the amount of film I shoot and provides for considerably faster development than at 20C. I guess I am wondering if these decisions are having a material effect on the negative and if so, should I consider some other combination of temperature and dilution. I sense the need for some experimentation!

Thanks again for the feedback.

[henkvanzuylen]

Ilford advice ID11 stock for finest grain

see page 2 form the pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/48340958/PDF%27s/Film%20en%20ontwikkelin...elta%20400.pdf

[titrisol]

I do use the guidance from Illford, which indicated ID11 at stock, 1+1 or 1+3(4?) with a maximum temperature of 24C. I just figured I would develop at 1+1 and the maximum temperature as it seemed like a reasonable rate to consume the stock ID11 given the amount of film I shoot and provides for considerably faster development than at 20C. I guess I am wondering if these decisions are having a material effect on the negative and if so, should I consider some other combination of temperature and dilution. I sense the need for some experimentation!

Thanks again for the feedback.

In the 2nd page of the Ilford delta 400 Techincal Info it says that you can obtain finer grain with ID11 stock.
Now that the summer is coming, use Delta 100

[Gareth.Ig]

Aha. I was using the guidance available for powder based developers, not the film, I'll have a closer read of the Delta 400 info. Thanks guys.