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05-01-2015, 04:46 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by LesDMess Quote
We don't have to descend down the film vs alternate road but on the film forum I wanted to be sure nobody mistakes 35mm film resolution being limited to a measly 6MP.
Yeah, that was not the point of this thread. It was just to get body advice. The place that processed my film a few years ago was a full time graphics printer/ designer/ developer. I was pretty happy with the results I got out of them. 6MP might seem terrible right now but I have never printed anything larger than 8x10 and I know that 6MP (I still use my ist DS at times), at that size, looks just fine.

Now, I am just going to have to find a body that I like that will allow full control of M and A lenses and allow me to set ISO.

05-01-2015, 05:08 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by derelict Quote
Yeah, that was not the point of this thread. It was just to get body advice. The place that processed my film a few years ago was a full time graphics printer/ designer/ developer. I was pretty happy with the results I got out of them. 6MP might seem terrible right now but I have never printed anything larger than 8x10 and I know that 6MP (I still use my ist DS at times), at that size, looks just fine.

Now, I am just going to have to find a body that I like that will allow full control of M and A lenses and allow me to set ISO.
I do shoot film a lot, scan them at home with a Canonscann 9000F at 3600 dpi (it produce 20-24mpx pictures from 24x36 film) and i can assure you, there is almost an infinite quantity of details. The bette the resolution gets, the more details appear.

I did some enlargement from a scanned picture to correct colors, in 30x45 cm (12x18 inch), at 305 dpi . Next to the direct print from neg, i wasn't able to say which one was except from the change i did in the color.

So : don't worry about that.

Last : usualy, the limit is more in the "cheap" scan done for CD, than in the neg itself.

PS : i did a 30x40 cm print (12x16 inch) from a 6mpx picture (taken with Fuji S9500), i upscaled it a bit in photoshop, kept the 305 dpi. The result is awesomely good, because the file was quite clean and grainless. So no worry about that too


Last edited by aurele; 05-01-2015 at 05:13 AM.
05-01-2015, 05:47 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by derelict Quote
Now, I am just going to have to find a body that I like that will allow full control of M and A lenses and allow me to set ISO.
If weight and the price isn't of any concern I would go for Z1p , otherwise for Z50p - both workhorses with Z50p being lighter and less feature packed but still having all what's really needed and more on top of that. Plus it doesn't suffer from the plastic gear syndrome . Also from my personal experience Z1p is harder to come by in good condition because it was a workhorse of many professionals back in their day, and Z1p is merciless to the batteries - drains them a lot. Z50p much lighter on batteries, much more available in EX or like new condition.
Good luck picking up your new body - whatever you choose you cannot go wrong with Pentax ( apart form some MZ bodies which were plasticy built inside :P )
05-01-2015, 09:40 AM   #19
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Thanks for all the replies. Definitely helped me narrow things down a bit.

This might also be opening the can but I am looking for B&W film recommendations. In a couple of weeks, I will be taking a photography class covering white balance at a car museum and am going to bring the film body and a couple of lenses with me. It has decent lighting but not spectacular since it is a commercial warehouse type building. Tripod will be with me so longer exposure times is not too big of a deal. From some reading, I was thinking Neopan 100?

05-01-2015, 09:50 AM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
As long as we're on this topic. . . The other reason I've been drawn to medium format is to explore that subtle "medium format look", which is not only a product of high definition and smooth tones, but also shallow DOF combined with a relatively wide perspective. It's an effect that, optically, you just don't get out of small-format systems, although everybody keeps trying!
Good to point out some other great properties when going to larger format.

BTW, in your thread playing with DxO FilmPack 4 you state, "Then, just for fun... I found Agfa Ultra Color 100. This is a color negative film that was discontinued in 2005, but it almost looks more like a slide film to me. It does exaggerated contrast, wildly wacked-out colors, and plainly visible film grain. (However, in the comments I've read from people who actually shot Ultra Color 100, they described it as being fine-grained. I wonder what's up with that?) This is good for those situations where you want to put some angry fruit salad in the viewer's face, and you don't care if it looks freakish and cartoony."

In the Agfa data sheet on Ultra 100 it states as follows: By means of the EYE VISION technology incorporated in all the Agfa Vista, Ultra and APS star films, it is now possible to match, to a large extent, the films’ sensitisation to the colour perception of the human eye. The effect is shown chematically in the following diagrams. The EYE VISION technology achieves more accurate colour fidelity, and largely eliminates the colour falsifications present in films with conventional sensitisation. They also rate it's grain as finest in their lineup. Of course there are so many variables when it comes to color such as our own color perception, our system, the film and how the color was extracted and any post adjustments made. I find that grain is better than Kodak Gold 100 but not as fine as Kodak Ektar 100 - but very manageable. I have 20" X 30" optically printed poster prints of it as well as many others I use for comparison.

Anyways, Agfa Ultra100 was a favorite of mine back in the day. In fact I just used up my freezer stash of it. Here are a couple from my collection.

Inside flash with mixed lighting.


Outdoor bright daylight


---------- Post added 05-01-15 at 01:03 PM ----------

Incidentally, once you have digitized film, you can do all the other post work to it that you may want.

HDR using one frame of Fuji Velvia 100
-> Fullsize Fuji Velvia 100

Grain reduction on Fuji Natura ISO1600
-> Fullsize Fuji Natura ISO1600

Stitching 3 frames of Kodak Gold 100
-> Fullsize Kodak Gold 100
05-01-2015, 03:21 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
I read somewhere long ago that under ideal conditions with fine-grained film, good light, and a professional drum scanner it was possible to get useful image detail from 35mm film up to 24 MP scans.
Somewhat higher to be honest. The 24 Mpixel figure is simply the resolution of a 4000 dpi scanner multiplied by the size of the 35 mm frame. With scans, the number of megapixels is pretty meaningless. More important is the system resolution (lp/mm or MTF, take your pick) for the film/lens combo itself. That can be compared directly to the system resolution for a digital camera/lens combo. Even then there is more to image quality than resolution.

Here is a set of bullet points regarding film, scans, digital, printing, and expectations for quality:
  • You will probably get better results for color photography from a 16 megapixel digital camera with excellent lens than from a 35mm SLR with the same excellent lens shooting the best color films.
  • Low speed 35mm B&W films are capable of resolution and tonal expression beyond what is available with most FF digital cameras shooting in normal mode (no pixel shift or HDR). That may change in the near future.
  • A full analog enlargement (silver-based, wet darkroom) is qualitatively different than a quality ink-jet print from scan or full digital capture. They are not directly comparable.
  • No current scanner technology is capable of capturing the full image data from a well-exposed B&W film negative
  • The limits for enlargement size for a particular frame size (e.g. 35mm FF) are about the same for a full analog process, drum scan to quality ink-jet (300 dpi), and direct digital ink-jet from 36 Mpx camera for B&W work
  • Current archival papers and inks for ink-jet have permanence qualities that approach archival processed silver-based negatives and prints
  • Machine scans from the drug store suck...regardless of how many megapixels the output is
  • Very few consumer or photo-enthusiast scanners deliver the advertised scan resolution and only two on the current market exceed 4000 dpi. Those two are the Flextight scanners from Hasselblad.
  • The main advantage to a drum scan is extracting dynamic range
  • The threshold for quality 35mm scan work is at about 2000 dpi real world resolution
  • The optical system on most flatbed scanners is not so good, but adequate for many purposes
  • You pretty much get what you pay for with film scanners but with diminishing returns at the high end price-wise.
At this point, I will sort of fade away in anticipation of flaming projectiles...


Steve

(...owns a few dozen film cameras in formats from 35mm through 4x5, two scanners (Nikon 5000 ED and Epson V700), full wet darkroom setup allowing negatives up to 6x7cm and a K-3 with too many lenses...Oh! And a humongous Canon Pixma Pro 100 printer!)

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-01-2015 at 03:27 PM.
05-02-2015, 04:23 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
At this point, I will sort of fade away in anticipation of flaming projectiles...
I don't think any flames are necessary. It's a complicated subject. When dealing with any analog process, there are always a lot more variables in play. Also, I'm sure it's true that B&W film is capable of greater definition than color film. All my experience is with color. (And that experiment which arrived at the 24 MP number was based on color film, too.)

I think it's still safe to say, however, that it's easier to get big scans from a big film format. It makes all the parameters less demanding.
05-02-2015, 09:28 AM   #23
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As posted, others have different experiences with their film and usually represent it as applicable to all users of film which is clearly not the case. Resolution and grain are characteristics that can be easily demonstrated provided you account for the system. Most of the errors conducted by users is that they don't account for the fact that the target has to outresolve the system in order to be meaningful. Fortunately there are many standards in place for guidance. I still remember in my digi shooting days when Michael Reichmann published that a 3MP Canon D30 outresolved an Imacon scanned 35mm Fuji Provia 100 D30 Vs. Provia 100F back in 2000. As you can see, even with all that experience and equipment, even a supposedly world renowned photog can get it very wrong . . .

However, color and contrast are another matter altogether as not only do you have to account for the system and workflow but you also have to account for personal perceptions. For my own use, I put more emphasis on this and only need a reasonable amount of resolution since I can always go larger if I need it.

05-02-2015, 10:18 AM   #24
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So, I picked up a ZX5. Should have it in a couple of days. Film suggestions anyone? I have been using this as a base but wonder if I can get some advice on expanding off of it before I start to purchase rolls.


Oh, and can anyone direct me to any good reading on zone metering, since B&W is what I will be shooting.
05-02-2015, 10:28 AM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by derelict Quote
So, I picked up a ZX5. Should have it in a couple of days. Film suggestions anyone? I have been using this as a base but wonder if I can get some advice on expanding off of it before I start to purchase rolls.
A good selection of b&w 35mm film -> Freestyle b&w 35mm film.
Of course I suggest you process your own and Freestyle also carries the tools and chemicals. The first one - if you've never done it before, may be a little challenging and time consuming. After successfully doing the first, the rest gets much easier and faster.

If you didn't already know, ICE - scanner dust and scratch removal, does not work with any true b&w film. You must try to control the dust in your environment.

With your selection of film will also come with what developer you will be using with it. Personally I would recommend Kodak TMAX100 and XTOL for developer. Great all around and extremely fine grained if that is the look you are going for.

Examples from Kodak TMAX 100.





05-02-2015, 10:43 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by LesDMess Quote
Examples from Kodak TMAX 100.
These three images captivate me!

I reported elsewhere that my wife and I attended a charity 'Print & Book Show" last night to benefit a private library, which was a large group of print and book dealers who'd set up in tables in a series of large rooms. My wife spent all her time looking at books. I spent nearly all of mine considering artwork for my new office space, looking at stone lithographs, mostly, but for a few minutes spent in a booth full of mounted photographic enlargements. I literally had my hand on my wallet when I stopped and thought, "I have film cameras. Why don't I just try to make some of these images myself?"

Surely I can find an old-school printer in St. Louis. Sure, I can blow $275 experimenting, but I'll only be out the price of one enlargement I didn't buy.

Secondly, I overhead another patron telling his partner, with a touch of awe in his voice, "These are real, SILVER prints - film and chemicals and paper in a darkroom - you know, the real thing."

I don't know - are we that rare?
05-02-2015, 10:50 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
These three images captivate me!

I reported elsewhere that my wife and I attended a charity 'Print & Book Show" last night to benefit a private library, which was a large group of print and book dealers who'd set up in tables in a series of large rooms. My wife spent all her time looking at books. I spent nearly all of mine considering artwork for my new office space, looking at stone lithographs, mostly, but for a few minutes spent in a booth full of mounted photographic enlargements. I literally had my hand on my wallet when I stopped and thought, "I have film cameras. Why don't I just try to make some of these images myself?"

Surely I can find an old-school printer in St. Louis. Sure, I can blow $275 experimenting, but I'll only be out the price of one enlargement I didn't buy.

Secondly, I overhead another patron telling his partner, with a touch of awe in his voice, "These are real, SILVER prints - film and chemicals and paper in a darkroom - you know, the real thing."

I don't know - are we that rare?
Thanks.

That's another good point - making silver prints. It has been a few but I used to take a photography class at a local college just so I can use the darkroom. It will be fun to do the class assignments too as well as mingle with other enthusiasts in that setting, but I recall that the experience was really inexpensive.
05-02-2015, 04:17 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by LesDMess Quote
Thanks.
Especially #2 - it's the hint of a smile at the corner of her eye, knowing you are shooting her shooting.
05-13-2015, 11:28 AM   #29
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Okay, another question, keep in mind that I am going to be running B&W film exclusively: using filters. I picked up an orange filter as I liked the effect that it has in shifting colors in B&W but nothing that I can find indicates whether or not it can be used all of the time. My 28 and 50 use the same filter size and I plan on screwing it onto them anytime I pull them from the bag. Any problem with running it that way, using the orange filter like I use the UV filters?
05-13-2015, 12:56 PM   #30
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You could keep the filter on, but you may not want to. Orange will darken the blue of the sky, add contrast to clouds, and make green plants darker. It will also alter skin tones. Keep a yellow and a green with you to control contrast under different conditions and a red to add contrast to outdoor shots. Also, if your camera doesn't meter through the lens, don't forget to account for the filter in your exposure calculations.
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